Moral Maze - Radio 4 8pm 19 Feb - Transcript

I only wish Torr Robinson had been aksed to define what they mean by "live as a woman". I'm interested in how they'd skirt around that one, trying to avoid reducing it to dresses and make-up.

extract of exchange between Jane Fae & Michael Portillo:

MB: ...So, for instance, if I question whether people should be allowed by law to self-identify, does that make me transphobic?

JF: Nope. No, not at all. I mean…

MP: Ever, have you ever come across anyone who might think that it did?

JF: Yes, I have. And

MP: Right. But that’s not your opinion?

JF: It’s, erm. Part of the problem and, and, er, I don’t know if you got my, erm, your producer said it was an excellent piece in the Independent today, so I should go with that. Erm, the problem…

MB: Self-promotion’s a wonderful thing…

JF: Absolutely, absolutely (laughter in background) Absolutely, absolutely. Ah, I’ve got a book next year, I’ll be back for that. Erm, the, the…

MB: I’ll make a note.

JF: The, I’ve lost the point I was going to...

MP: Can I ask you another question."

Effective isnt it?

This is the Independent article referred to: www.independent.co.uk/voices/trans-rights-free-speech-language-labour-legal-system-a9344196.html

This is the Independent bio:
Jane Fae

"Jane Fae is a writer and feminist with a particular interest in the rights of individuals to express their own sexuality without censure by the state. She is an active supporter of Consenting Adult Action Network, as well as regular contributor to national and LGBT press."
www.independent.co.uk/author/jane-fae

CAAN (Consenting Adult Action Network)
twitter.com/CAAN_UK
Wiki

"The Consenting Adult Action Network (CAAN) is a grassroots network of individuals in the United Kingdom that was formed in 2008 to protest and oppose laws restricting activities between consenting adults, most notably the criminalisation of possession of "extreme pornography"
"On 14 June and 22 August [2008?], they attempted to seek advice on what material might be caught by the law. They took a dossier of images to three major police forces, although none of them could yet say which pictures would be deemed illegal.

On 21 October 2008, they organised a protest with Ben Westwood against the law on "extreme pornography".

They were awarded "Specialists Website of the Year" by the London Gay Sex and Fetish Awards 2008.

On 25 January 2009, the day before the law on "extreme pornography" came into effect, CAAN protested in London. They were supported by Backlash and The Spanner Trust. The protest was attended by Peter Tatchell and Ben Westwood.

March 2010, CAAN announce they are publishing a book "Beyond the Circle: Sexuality & discrimination in heteronormative Britain" written by John Ozimek."

CAAN is concerned about several issues regarding consenting adults:

The law on "extreme pornography", since it criminalises possession of images involving consenting adults, including staged acts, and screenshots from legal films.

Clauses in the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 that ban people from working in jobs involving children or "vulnerable adults" if they possess "sexually explicit images depicting violence against human beings". The government state that 11.3 million will have to register with the scheme, although the number has been estimated by others at over 14 million.

As of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, sexual images of 16- and 17-year-olds are treated as child pornography, even though the age of consent remains at 16 (CAAN states it has no interest in tinkering with the age of consent, however they believe this change in the law to be "misguided and disproportionate").[This quote needs a citation]

Government plans to criminalise prostitution.

Plans to recategorise lapdancing clubs as "sex encounter" establishments."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consenting_Adult_Action_Network

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374614-John-Ozimek-now-Jane-Fae-on-women-feminists-and-victims-of-pornographers

@glinner - I know it's not the done thing on MN to @ people but a lot of us are interested in this briefing document and wondered if you could shed any light on it? The panellists seemed to think the briefing document they'd been reading had been prepared by you when it obviously hadn't.

Jane Fae is a very sinister individual.

It was interesting to note how MB introduced them. Describes herself as a, er hims, as a writer, occasional comic, and professional nuisance

So, JF self-identifies as a comic now. I don't think Glinner will be quaking in his boots at the competition, but this shows how JF is trying to move away from the trans issue and insinuate Janeself into other media slots. JF has had some success, as JF has been on the Jeremy Vine lunchtime radio show, talking about stockpiling for Brexit and other such eccentric but harmless things, coming across as a cosy older lady who is eking out the pennies. The 'jokes' JF shoehorned into this discussion ( trans was something that vicars did, erm, with someone else’s vest in their pantry, or pants in someone else’s vestry or whatever ) and the coquettishness show a different persona altogether. I find it troubling that JF appears to think that they can be perceived however they choose (is that a characteristic of narcissism?)

All this reminds me of the 'We're Still Here' conference that JF organised. The MNer who attended reported that a key strategy for gaining ground (quite literally when it comes to women's spaces) is TRAs 'gaining trust and making themselves likeable' and it seems that JF is now making a concerted effort at this kind of charm offensive. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

Obviously, I'm glad this means JF might put the championing of extreme 'murder and dismemberment' porn on a back burner for a while, but I find it chilling that someone who holds those views and has that agenda is now trying to charm the public into lowering boundaries.

Thank you from me for the transcript too pombear So very useful to have it on permanent record, as a reference resource.

Fae not far...

R0wantrees yes slight depreciation, is it?' 'I'm being rude' etc. far very much got people on side by appearing 'reasonable' but also pisgong ahead with own agenda a out children. I really think then was the time to bring in the number of De-transitioners now coming forward.

I wish someone had pushed Ann and Mona if they'd ok on the showers and changing rooms or prison with males. If they said no problem I think its because they don't expect it to happen for them!

There can sometimes be an overlap between apparently flirtatious behaviour & deliberate forced teaming attempts.

MoleSmokes "Fae's flippant, flirty approach!" I'm Glad someone else picked that up, I thought I was imagining it!

"It sounded like it must have been an internal BBC "Briefing Document" that had been presented to the Panel as if it had been supplied by Linehan himself. Was the Panel given a "Briefing Document" about all the interviewees or only Linehan??"

i think Graham should take that up with the programme. It smells of ambush to me.

Thank you pom.

I'm so glad GL talked about trans people who don't deny biology. It's such a shame. Here are trans people in the world, doing something exciting with femininity/ masculinity, proving they are separate from biology and being different. And somehow that gets pinned down into insisting it proves some nonsense and is all linked to biology, and all the glory and true bravery of being trans and our solidarity as gender critical feminists with them disappears.

I agree, @Italiangreyhound about the post by @DodoPatrol.

This one, about how to explain the situation to people not familiar with it all yet:

'Women and men have very obviously different bodies. Women are physically less strong than a man of similar age and fitness. That’s relevant in sport, obviously, and also in simple fear of a stranger on a dark night. Women go through female puberty and have periods, so they need more and different toilet facilities than men. Women are the only sex that can get pregnant, so they lose out financially unless the country has good maternity laws. Women and men need different medical care, and often the research has only been done on males.’

That sort of thing needs to be said, rather than the words that code for it amongst people who already know the situation

A woman would be absolutely crucified for saying that floisme.

That's what got Jenni Murray the ticking off. I bet Portillo will still be able to present his railway programmes tho.

Thank you so much pombear. I have a visceral reaction to Fae, so much so that I couldn't listen. So your transcript is hugely valuable. And everything pencils said too.

Pombear thank you so much. I missed it and now can't get it to replay so this is amazing

Aside from the actual debate, which other posters have covered, I found the male voices really interesting.

The way Portillo states his views with no obfuscation or trepidation: I believe transwomen are male and women are female. Male women are not female people and therefore transwomen are not women.

The way Glinner doesn't give way when interrupted: No, no l’ll just finish my point.

And of course 'The word 'woman is taken' from Glinner. I think most women, aside from Posie Parker, would have added a 'sorry'.

pombear thank you so much.

DodoPatrol your points yesterday at 09:13 are excellent.

Thank you Pom, that must have been tiring. I know sone of the comments were bloody tiresome!

I wish somebody had mentioned penises

They were all thinking it. All of the panel and all of the witnesses had penis related thoughts for a variety of reasons.

Sterling work pombear, thank you so much.

Thank you Pom. I listened last night but reading some of the batshittery really clarified it for me.

I wish somebody had mentioned penises

I'm really glad Portillo returned to the point about the definition of woman as key to being able to protect women's rights that MS airily hqndwaved away with her fatuous comment.

But I just typed a thing

No! It's far more work than that!

You listened intensely to every word of a 45 minute programme (a significant proportion of which were totally infuriating batshit words), you disentangled all the bits where people were speaking over each other, you interpreted everyone's spoken words as written words, which is never easy ...

It's just so incredibly useful having a transcript because we can quote the bits we want to discuss rather than saying 'that bit where so-and-so said something about ...'

Also, it's a great leveller seeing everyone's words typed out, flat on the page in the same font. You can see who got to say the most, who got interrupted, whose words were twisted and exactly how.

A transcript allows you to see the bare statements people make. When you are listening to people speak, or even more when you are watching on TV, it's easy to not notice just how absurd, manipulative or threatening some people's statements are. Stripping out the tone, timing, body language etc. is always very revealing.

I will engage with the content tomorrow, for now I just want to say thank you

MS: But, but if they see themselves, if they identify themselves as women, who are we, you and I who may be very confident in our own sexuality to say, ‘well, no actually, your anguish doesn’t, doesn’t erm, er, deserve that particular designation’?

FFS Mona, who are we to say ???

I'll tell you who we are, we're women - actual women with actual female biology not men with identities - their "anguish" regarding their identities is not our concern, and is just another attempt to try and appeal to female socialisation. Fuck that noise.

All the dancing around for 45 minutes when "No that's not for you, it's for women and you are a man" should shut it down.

GL is right, this is not actually women's problem and I'm fecking sick of us being expected to accept it as such. Men with identities need to be in with males or campaign for a third space. End of.

And it's somewhat concerning that MS doesn't seem to understand that identities are feck all to do with sexuality. FFS. Again!

& enormous thanks pombear

Amazing work, thank you!