Telegraph reports schools face legal action

@RobinMoiraWhite thank you for engaging.

Can I ask if you accept that biological sex, and gender identity, are different?

And if so, can I ask if you recognise that women have reason, in some situations, to want single sex spaces, and that this should be respected as legitimate?

If so, can I ask your views on:

1. Sport
2. Prisons
3. Women's refuges
4. Homeless shelters
5. Communal changing rooms
6. Hospital wards
7. Hostel dormitories
8. Medical care
9. Toilets
10. Prizes, awards, and women only shortlists

I suppose I am interested in when, and if, you see there as being areas in which someone's innate sense of gender identity should not overcome women's having single-sex provision.

I remember reading a (very sympathetic) transwoman's account of transition in the Telegraph a year or two ago. And what startled me most was when she said that she assured women that she was much more frightened of us, when using the ladies, than we were of her - that she was really afraid we would mock or sneer at her. And I instantly remembered the Margaret Atwood quote, that men are afraid women will laugh at them, and women are afraid men will kill them. There's a particular stomach churning fear, unique to realising it's late and you're walking home and a man is walking just a little way behind you. Of realising you're on a train alone with a man who is staring at you. Of someone's hand going where it shouldn't when you're minding your own business in a pub or club, and you turn around and some laughing male face smirks, because he feels completely entitled to grope you, because you exist. And women who protest are often assaulted. So, so many women are raped, and if one exists who has never been sexually assaulted, I'm yet to meet her.

Then there's the worldwide way in which women are brutally, universally, killed, assaulted, marginalised and abused based on sex. It's not done on gender identity. It's sex. So we need protections on a basis of sex, too, if that injustice is to be countered, and safety increased - no?

I often wonder, when this discussion happens, if transwomen really understand this aspect. We're not being exclusionary to be horrid. We're wanting single sex provision from lengthy lived experience, backed up by a plethora of statistically supported fact.

Some might say the targetting of children by some TRAs is not accidental.

There's such a breathtaking lack of empathy and care for children in all this. Adults threatening boys and girls with being charged with crimes if they don't accept the opposite sex undressing in front of them, girls forced to manage menstruation in mixed sex environments, the wishes of children of faiths, victims of sexual abuse completely disregarded. All parents know that our children are sensitive about their bodies and development at times - uncertain, embarrassed, fearful of being found 'inadequate', some horrified about pubertal changes, often struggling with mental health anxieties.
Yet a group that demands the ultimate empathy and understanding from society, targets children with a clinical precision and forces mixed sex toilets, sleeping accommodation and changing rooms on them. Zero bloody understanding of children and their needs.

Why is there no care or empathy for children in all this?

Trans pupils and students are often told to use the ‘accessible’ facilities rather than those for their true gender. It may then be appropriate to rename these facilities using terms such as ‘unisex accessible toilets’, ‘larger toilet’, ‘toilet and changing facility’ or simply ‘toilet’ to reduce what is often perceived as the stigma of using toilets commonly identified as ‘Disabled Toilet’. This will help ensure schools and colleges respect the dignity and privacy of both Trans pupils and students and also pupils and students with disabilities, whilst both ensuring everyone’s safety and protecting their self-respect.

So nobody's been worrying about the stigma for disabled children who need to use the disabled toilet all these years, then? About challenging the thinking that ensures that such a stigma exists? Apparently it's not a problem if disability is shameful, but that shame shouldn't extend to a non-disabled child, so we need to rename the facilities in question if trans children are to use them. Nice.

The doublethink here is really infuriating. Especially when other guidance insists that disabled children being bullied is less serious, because the stigma is less. Make your fucking minds up. Either the stigma is less, or it's so great trans kids can't be expected to use facilities identified for disabled ones for fear of that stigma extending to them. Which is it?

I suppose I get frustrated when I see patently incorrect statements about what the law IS. (And ‘guidance’ that is built on myth or misinterpretation or wishful thinking.)

RobinMoiraWhite Couldn't agree more. Have you taken Stonewall to task on the the untruths they are propagating about the Equality Act?

I can't understand why the CPS is giving advice about discrimination law in the first place. It is civil, not criminal law so why is it a matter for them?

I believe the EHRC have corrected their own guidance which now correctly references the single-sex exemptions and makes clear that the law does not give trans people the unqualified right to access the facilities of their choice.

What is an "acquired gender role?"

Male & female toilets shouldn't be only for those who conform to gendered expectations/sex-based stereotypical presentation.

I must admit I don't quite see how the human rights of transgender people entitle them to use the facilities of the opposite sex. I feel like it is a par with me demanding access to disabled facilities because, as a woman, I am also protected by the EA.

And talking of people who are disabled, will the schools channelling gender non-conforming children to the disabled toilets be providing more disabled toilets?

In practical terms, there should be no issues unless the different
aspects of their lives overlap in some way. For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting

Its a shame that JackyH can no longer post here as she provided useful clarification:

HT
"Except that UK case law says otherwise. If a person does not have a GRC they should be treated the same as everyone who is of that same natural sex. Thus, a male who transitions should be treated the same as any other male and vice versa. Anyone can ask to inspect a person's birth certificate to check the sex reference. If a male who transitions has a BC that reads as male he should be treated as a male.

There is no law about his use of toilets so there is zero requirement to allow him to use any of the women's facilities, even if he does have a GRC. It only takes one woman to "reasonably object" to have any man removed from any women's facility / service.

EqA, Schedule 3, section 27, subsection 6: (6)The condition is that—

(a) the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and

(b)the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex."

January, I'm only really concerned with schools so I can't answer all your questions I'm afraid. The best I can do is link (yet more) government published guidance.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/484855/Therecruitmentandretentionoftransgenderstaff-guidanceforemployers.pdf#page44*

a trans person should be free to select the facilities appropriate to the gender in which they present. For example, when a trans person starts to live in their acquired gender role on a full time basis they should be afforded the right to use the facilities appropriate to the acquired gender role.

NASUWT are an interesting historical case. As their name suggests, they were two unions, the National Union of Schoolmasters and Union of Women Teachers, who both opposed the introduction of equal pay for men and women in the classroom, and when this provision came in, amalgamated.

to use the toilets for their acquired gender
How is gender being defined, and at what point is it deemed to be permanently acquired?

In the NASUWT guidance linked earlier, I was somewhat shocked to read guidance for what might more often be described as male teaching colleagues who cross-dress:
(extract)
"Supporting Dual-role People
"Some people manage their gender dysphoria by living as a man or a woman in different aspects of their lives. For example, they may work in a male role but socialise in a female role.
Although the protected characteristic under the Equality Act is gender reassignment, it is best to assume that dual-role people are covered by perception that they might transition.
Like everyone else they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.
In practical terms, there should be no issues unless the different
aspects of their lives overlap in some way. For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting.
As referenced on page 4, it is always far better to ask the person concerned before applying any arbitrary label to them."
www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/085066bb-c224-40de-b79e2a1358801ee9.pdf

I am not sure that the NASUWT has considered the privacy & dignity of its female members

RobinMoiraWhite We are talking about a legal issue and you are a barrister, but you answer me with feelings?

“It’s about giving people the opportunity to use the toilet they are comfortable with, not what the school is comfortable with.”

The word 'people' in that sentence is extremely disingenuous.

This is very specific about which people get to feel comfortable and which people can be desperately uncomfortable and distressed but must shut up and put up. There is no equality whatever in this. It privileges one group with completely unequal standards.

The word 'school' is also completely disingenuous as what the school is uncomfortable about is the total lack of care, consideration or regard for the needs of any other child but the trans one, and being forced against their judgement to ignore those childrens' needs.

Immoral. There is nothing progressive or fair or right about doing this to children.

ProdigalKitten this was ages up the thread but I wonder if the big boys boarding schools have been insulated so far from this by how early you have to register - candidates have to be registered before the end of the year they turn 10 so generally pre puberty and too early to be thinking about whether they are trans.

Noting again that the guidance refers to Changing rooms as well, I think you'd be hard pressed to find non communal changing in schools.

it is well established
How was this established, and what was considered when establishing it?
that the transperson
How are you, or the law, defining this status?
has the right
How was this right established, who granted it, and what impacts were considered when doing so?
to use the toilets for their acquired gender
How is gender being defined, and at what point is it deemed to be permanently acquired?

Robin - I see you're back on the thread. I'd really appreciate it if you could give answers to the questions I asked earlier. It's important to get clarity on this stuff.

For workplaces, it is well established that the transperson has the right to use the toilets for their acquired gender, regardless of what building regulations say. CPS/Stonewall are simply saying that it is also true for schools.

This was also the guidance in the 2017 NASUWT document,
'Trans Equality in Schools and Colleges Advice and Guidance for
Teachers and Leaders'

www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/085066bb-c224-40de-b79e2a1358801ee9.pdf

there are IMO a number of Safeguarding & legal issues within the document

NASUWT & Stonewall are two of the partners who have contributed to the CPS LGBT Hate Crime schools pack released this week.

current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3804613-New-Year-New-Judicial-Review-CPS-Hate-Crime-Guidance-for-schools

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3809302-CPS-school-hate-crime-guidance-we-must-complain

March 2018 Transgender Trend article, 'Who Is Making Policy For Schools?' details how a school was pressured by a local trans support group founded by police officer, Gina Denham, to change its policies:

(extract)
"The whole campaign, from start to finish, took 6 days. No time to conduct a proper impact assessment on pupils protected under the protected characteristic ‘sex’ as the school is legally obliged to do before changing policy. How is this not in breach of Equality law? The pupil involved is legally male, not female, and single-sex provisions are lawful under the Equality Act, for reasons of privacy. The example of school facilities used in the Equality and Human Rights Commission Technical Guidance (3.20) does not state that a pupil protected under ‘gender reassignment’ as transsexual should be allowed to use the facilities of the opposite sex:

The way in which school facilities are provided can lead to discrimination. Example: A school fails to provide appropriate changing facilities for a transsexual pupil and insists that the pupil uses the boys’ changing room even though she is now living as a girl. This could be indirect gender reassignment discrimination unless it can be objectively justified. A suitable alternative might be to allow the pupil to use private changing facilities, such as the staff changing room or another suitable space.

King Edmund School is praised for showing “flexibility and openness to change” whereas in fact they were coerced by a campaign designed to intimidate and shame them for their ‘abusive’ policy of ‘discrimination’ and ‘segregation’, clearly risking damage to the school’s reputation. One tweeter even likened it to ‘apartheid.’

Although the final tweet proclaims ‘Everyone wins!’ Denham freely admits in this BBC report that the victory is only for the transgender student and everyone else’s needs and rights are unimportant:

“It’s about giving people the opportunity to use the toilet they are comfortable with, not what the school is comfortable with.” (continues)

www.transgendertrend.com/who-is-making-policy-for-schools/

For workplaces, it is well established that the transperson has the right to use the toilets for their acquired gender, regardless of what building regulations say. CPS/Stonewall are simply saying that it is also true for schools.

Coyoacan. ‘IMHO a child under 18 cannot be trans’

I do not attempt speak for others experiences but I can say that by about 12 or 13 I had a wholly settled view of my gender identity as trans (having been working that through for myself for done years previously with little or no help). That is the same gender identity I have had to my present mid-50’s.

The closest thing I could find to what schools are advised by the government was this document:
class="underline">Guidancebooklet_2015.pdf
Which is linked in the government guidance here:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/315587/Equality_Act_Advice_Final.pdf

Trans pupils and students are often told to use the ‘accessible’ facilities rather than those for their true gender. It may then be appropriate to rename these facilities using terms such as ‘unisex accessible toilets’, ‘larger toilet’, ‘toilet and changing facility’ or simply ‘toilet’ to reduce what is often perceived as the stigma of using toilets commonly identified as ‘Disabled Toilet’.
This will help ensure schools and colleges respect the dignity and privacy of both Trans pupils and students and also pupils and students with disabilities, whilst both ensuring everyone’s safety and protecting their self-respect.

If I were in charge of a school, I'd take the approach here. As it is the one recommended by the official EA guidance for schools.

Mockers if there is no such thing as a transexual child then why are schools making provision for them at all? Why don't children just follow the rules set for them within their own sex class.....I am staggered that so called officials have been hoodwinked so blatantly.