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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"The Inconvenient Truth about Transwomen", article

37 replies

MingeofDeath · 24/01/2020 15:14

Thoughtful, clear piece from Debbie Hayton about self ID

unherd.com/2020/01/scotlands-gender-recognition-act-is-a-hostage-to-fortune/

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 24/01/2020 17:20

Tinsel I read this really clear & important article hosted by 'MakeMoreNoise' during my break. I hope it was shared on FWR:

'A Plea for Help for Feminists from a Trans Widow'
Oct 17, 2019
concludes:
"Don’t exclude some women from feminism in the interests of inclusiveness. Imagine seeking support from other women, only to find that your husband or father had got there first?

When you allow our ex partners space in your feminism and give them platforms in your organisations and at your meetings, you exclude their wives, daughters, sisters and mothers from accessing these spaces and making use of resources that were set up to support women like them. Prioritise women over your desire to have a “get out of jail free” card to hold up against hostile accusations of bigotry

Above all, the most important thing that you can do to help trans widows, is to centre women and girls in your feminism."

makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/a-plea-for-help-for-feminists-from-a-trans-widow

SawingForTeens · 24/01/2020 17:13

female people have a right to group themselves and separate themselves as a biological class purely to have the privacy, dignity and freedom from embarrassment considered normal in our society

this, for me

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 24/01/2020 17:08

Hayton's written yet another 'do as I say not what I do' piece?

Fab, can't wait to read that.

R0wantrees · 24/01/2020 16:59

With regards the Yogycarta Principles I think the majority of women here will credit Sheila Jeffries for bringing them to awareness.

Speech from the We Need To Talk / Inconvenient Women event (6/13/18)

threads from 2018 with research & background:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228002-Yogyakarta-principles

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3284051-yogyakarta-principles-plus-10

TinseLANGel · 24/01/2020 16:37

Self ID into women's spaces by befriending feminists, writing think pieces and dictating pronouns in schools, or self ID into women's spaces by #nodebate and denouncing TERFs- the result is the same but the latter approach at least has the virtue of being honest.

Anybody who lauds transexuals in a feminist space (which FWR is) excludes their wife and other female relatives from accessing that support.

loveyouradvice · 24/01/2020 16:35

Personally I love the freedom and ease of women-only spaces..... and am just longing to know that they are OURS again. It will happen - but tis taking a LONG time!

Yes I am passionate about having them back for those that need them most, and who will not be able to use them in the current scenario....

But also for the large number of us who just want to relax.... the feeling of being relaxed and unthreatened in any way... the joy of that ease of just being in a women-only space

LangTimeNoWeetabix · 24/01/2020 16:21

writers would also remember that female people have a right to group themselves and separate themselves as a biological class purely to have the privacy, dignity and freedom from embarrassment considered normal in our society

Absolutely right, and victims of abuse should not have to put themselves in a position of having to disclose abuse in order to achieve this, like with the YHA guidelines.

Mockers - I had not read, or had forgotten that article so did not know about the author of the Yogyakarta Principles; there seem to be so many that go down that same route. He was involved in so many charities too.

Hidingtonothing · 24/01/2020 15:56

Fantastic post Michelle, agree with every word.

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/01/2020 15:51

Good article.

Although I wish rather than hang everything on that female people have a right to be safe, writers would also remember that female people have a right to group themselves and separate themselves as a biological class purely to have the privacy, dignity and freedom from embarrassment considered normal in our society .

A male person may wish to identify as a woman and wish everyone to believe they are a woman. This does not mean there is the slightest difference to the experiences of female people between that self identified male body and the men in the men's single sex spaces next door. None.

I wholly respect that some people don't identify as their biological sex and want an alternative provision. I believe they should have it if they want it. I don't believe female people should lose the right to ever be apart from male people or be expected to perceive some kind of difference between male bodies depending on the subjective announcement of the male's inner sense of self. And that's a sentence I've written thinking dear God, I live in a time and place where I actually have to spell this out.

And as I say over and over again - and Debbie I get this is not easy - what happens to the female people who cannot share a single sex space with any male, regardless of how that male identifies or the extent of their transition? Do we just shun all orthodox females, those with disabilities causing perceptual issues, the traumatised, the anxious, the raped? Because until males wanted into female spaces, female spaces successfully served all females.

Should we chuck out a proportion of females and deny them any space at all so males can be assured of two spaces they can choose from? How is that fair unless you automatically view male people as intrinsically more important and valuable than female ones?

Uncompromisingwoman · 24/01/2020 15:34

That's a very good clear article. Well done Debbie.

Mockers2020Vision · 24/01/2020 15:33

Whatever happened to the author of the Yogyakarta Principles?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5399247/UNICEF-kids-rights-campaigner-jailed-rape-boy-13.html

LangTimeNoWeetabix · 24/01/2020 15:30

I have seen this pop up on twitter a few times and will give it a read.