"The Inconvenient Truth about Transwomen", article

And the realization that if the sexes had been reversed everyone would have been appalled by the female spouse's behavior, and there would not have been an expectation that the male spouse would stay in the marriage no matter the cost to them.

This is a really good point Kittens.

And the realization that if the sexes had been reversed everyone would have been appalled by the female spouse's behavior, and there would not have been an expectation that the male spouse would stay in the marriage no matter the cost to them.

Everytime I see or hear Hayton, I think of their wife. She was in so much pain a broken woman coping with a terrible situation forced on her by her spouse and yet Hayton was so happy and didn't seem to notice anything was wrong.

That scene is imprinted on my memory. The pain on Mrs Hayton's face, and Dr Hayton's look of incomprehension, as though they had not considered the appalling effects of their transition on the rest of the family.

"I have not been able to read anything from Hayton since I saw that video with Hayton's long suffering wife.
I have seen her face a thousand thousand times in my working days and it cuts me to the quick."

Ditto. Everytime I see or hear Hayton, I think of their wife. She was in so much pain a broken woman coping with a terrible situation forced on her by her spouse and yet Hayton was so happy and didn't seem to notice anything was wrong.

I really hope that documentary shows a bad day for her and that Mrs Hayton has better happier days.

The male-bodied people in this movement need to realize that the grassroots slog of this movement is, and has been, done by natal women. For that reason, it should also be natal women at the front of the movement, leading us, speaking for us, and representing us.

Make-bodied people who are offered the mic should be passing it onto natal women.

The Second Wave would never have taken off the way it did if women could never have met to consciousness-raise or organise free from the presence of males.

I’ve done a LOT of feminist organising and time after time I’ve witnessed the effect of male presence: either 1) their own inevitable centering of themselves or 2) the point at which a woman pushes for something that is a bridge too far, in the male view.

Hayton is attempting to define just where that bridge too far is: right at the place short of where we fear assault. Which set us up for all sorts of questions re: data on assault cases (which is nearly impossible to find for reasons we all are already aware of) and a comparison of the risk TW’s feel in male spaces vs. the risk we are in in female spaces.

Because so many men in general refuse to accept the level of male violence against women, this is an argument that puts us on the back foot right from the start.

And Tinsel is right: feminism is for females, and it’s there to support the wives and children harmed by male action, which includes the action of gaining a name for oneself as the voice of reason on an issue that, fundamentally, stands on a platform of unreason: it still remains impossible, no matter what medical or surgical technique is employed, to change sex.

I have not been able to read anything from Hayton since I saw that video with Hayton's long suffering wife.
I have seen her face a thousand thousand times in my working days and it cuts me to the quick.

You are right - that was the only link between him and the YP I could find on google.

Yes, I was aware that Newell wrote the UNICEF Implementation Handbook for the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (I posted the link on that earlier thread), but he wasn't involved with drafting the Yogyakarta principles (as far as I know). I just think it's important to be accurate about who was involved with what. Sorry if that sounds like pedantry.

OldCrone Newall wrote the UNICEF Implementation Handbook for the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. which incorportated the Yogyataka principles in the 3rd edition. Sex was removed and gender put in.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3534509-Mail-article-children-going-into-care-to-change-sex
archive.christianconcern.com/our-issues/family-and-sexual-ethics/the-abusers-behind-the-idea-that-children-have-a-gender-identity
www.unicef.org/publications/files/Implementation_Handbook_for_the_Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child_Part_1_of_3.pdf

So it's a case of pay close attention to the ways in which the argument used serve the person making it rather than women as a group.

TheProdigalKittensReturn this paragraph stood out:

"Trans people who risk losing the goodwill we rely on. Attempts to change the law to our advantage by policing the words — and even the thoughts — of others will not end well for us. If the Scottish Government doesn’t see the problem, others will and those people may find popular support and rebuild society in a way that is genuinely unkind to us."

Whatever happened to the author of the Yogyakarta Principles?

What was Peter Newell's involvement with the Yogyakarta Principles? I can't see his name in the list of authors of either the original principles or the +10. Or were you referring to someone else mentioned in that article?
yogyakartaprinciples.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/principles_en.pdf
yogyakartaprinciples.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/A5_yogyakartaWEB-2.pdf

At this point I pretty much read "kids rights" as a dogwhistle for pedophilia, because that's what it's so often proven to be.

While safety is obviously vital it's really only the starting point of why women need our own spaces. The fact that even that basic level of consideration isn't being taken into account speaks volumes, but in terms of the other reasons we want and need women's spaces not being mentioned I'd point out that a. Debbie most likely does not understand those reasons because Debbie is not female and b. when the focus is on safety only that opens the door to those arguing that if someone has had their penis removed they're no longer a potential thread and thus should be allowed in. So it's a case of pay close attention to the ways in which the argument used serve the person making it rather than women as a group.

That there is at the bottom of it, a paternalism that believes males will decide what females may have. Female rights are seen as a gift or a loan based on the good will of males in the situation. I have a very serious problem with that, as any female should.

This ^^

Many of these rights are inexplicably related to consent and/or inform the Safeguarding of girls & vulnerable women.

If brexit then can we ditch 2048?

Having to disclose abuse brings the whole thing back again with the associated traumatic feelings. Not acceptable.

Thin please do take whatever helps.

One would hope, that having befriended feminists and therfore understanding the problems, that they would feel the need to self-exclude.

But when you read that thread or really look at these conversations you see something that another MNetter pointed out to me at the time. That there is at the bottom of it, a paternalism that believes males will decide what females may have. Female rights are seen as a gift or a loan based on the good will of males in the situation. I have a very serious problem with that, as any female should.

Although I wish rather than hang everything on that female people have a right to be safe, writers would also remember that female people have a right to group themselves and separate themselves as a biological class purely to have the privacy, dignity and freedom from embarrassment considered normal in our society .

Yes, me too.

Sometimes it really can be worth thinking about whether a particular group or space needs to be single sex. Maybe a previously all-woman knitting group should let a man who likes to knit come in. It's good to be open with people and try and be social.

But I still want privacy in some spaces even when I am not at all concerned about being safe.

One would hope, that having befriended feminists and therfore understanding the problems, that they would feel the need to self-exclude.

I know it is a vain hope

But it shouldn't be a vain hope.

I know plenty of men who are supportive of feminism. Many of them initially tried to join feminist groups or attend feminist events, then realised that this isn't how it works.

@Michelleoftheresistance

Great post. I have been composing my letter to my MP - yet to send. I have written about privacy and dignity as well as safety - but I will include some of what you have written too (amended) if that’s ok as you have set out the points so clearly.

Your stance is unarguable to me - yet will be argued!

One would hope, that having befriended feminists and therfore understanding the problems, that they would feel the need to self-exclude.

Apparently not.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605090-Boundaries-and-Allies

Thanks R0, my afternoon has just been hugely improved by spending half an hour with Sheila Jeffreys. It is balm to my (possibly over tired) soul.

You do a great deal to support & care for women & their children. Im glad women are supportive of you too &

Anybody who lauds transexuals in a feminist space (which FWR is) excludes their wife and other female relatives from accessing that support.

One would hope*, that having befriended feminists and therfore understanding the problems, that they would feel the need to self-exclude.

• I know it is a vain hope. Ever the optimist.

Thanks R0, my afternoon has just been hugely improved by spending half an hour with Sheila Jeffreys. It is balm to my (possibly over tired) soul.

Anybody who lauds transexuals in a feminist space (which FWR is) excludes their wife and other female relatives from accessing that support

I see Hayton's repeated articles on this a bit like Trump writing about how you should be nice to other people. I mean I agree with the sentiment but it's a bit rich isn't it?

I keep hoping that Hayton will stop self ID-ing into women's spaces and compelling their speech (and I believe the speech of young female students) because reading that article you'd think DH would get it.

I hope DH's wife is ok.