What are T***s and why has Cambridge's Student's Union publishes a guide to spotting them?

And if we ban trans women from places, we have to ban trans men too.

Nonsense. There is no need to ban transmen from women's spaces because they're female. Under sex based laws they would have access to every woman's space. Under the laws you seem to favor they would slowly but surely be pushed into men's spaces, which isn't safe for them.

What do you want frack. I read your posts. I don’t know what you want or what you stand for ?

I agree.

Men are responsible for their own violent behaviour Frack.

What do you want frack. I read your posts. I don’t know what you want or what you stand for ?

You said, it's the risk all males pose to all females.
That sounds like a horrible headspace.

FrackOff Feel free to focus on campaigning for whatever issue you please.

We have chosen to focus on upholding the existing legal rights of women.

Losing our rights to female-only legal set asides is a problem that will affect a great many of us, both now and in years to come and the current trend of undermining or abolishing them in advance of the law is already affecting many of us negatively, including myself and many women and girls I know.

Pubs cause men to drink.

I've never known a pub to cause anyone to drink.

And drink causes men to be violent to women

Men being violent to women cause men to be violent to women.

@PencilsInSpace
Pubs cause men to drink. And drink causes men to be violent to women. This is a far larger problem for women than the trans stuff. Why not focus on that?

No it was my mistake.

No worries

Now do a spot the misogynist version.

I know how to spot a Terf.

I just look in the mirror 🤷🏻‍♀️

Self id is already law.

In that case you surely can at least name the law? I'm pretty much up to date on those 900+ explanatory notes and the statutory guidance that accompanies the Eqality Act. I'm also read into the GRA and its guidance.

So, I'm looking forward to seeing you name it.

But can I just ask, if self-id is already law, then why are trans rights organisations still campaigning to make it legal?

And please take note: it is not a fear of males who identify as trans that we are discussing, it is the risk all males, including those who identify as trans, are posing to all females.

We are always talking about all males because we focus on the threat the male sex class poses to the female sex class. And because males who identify as trans are members of the male sex class, they should never be in female-only spaces. If they do not wish to use provisions dedicated to their own sex, then they should not be forced to do so. That doesn't mean including them in female spaces, it means providing them with an alternative that does not jeopardise their safety, dignity and privacy while also not jeopardising the safety, dignity and privacy of females.

It was a play on Frack's words. Sorry it it wasn't clear.

No it was my mistake.

Self id is already law.

No it isn't

Why not ban men from pubs?

Pubs are not single sex spaces.

Or from primary schools?

Primary schools are not single sex spaces.

Far more women are hurt by drunk men than by trans women. Far more children are hurt by men in jobs where they have access to children.

Far fewer male people have a trans identity than those who don't. Where is your evidence that trans people who are male pose a lower risk than any other males?

And if we ban trans women from places, we have to ban trans men too. Who you see as women. Should they suffer because of a fear of trans women?

I don't see why. We don't need to ban them from female only spaces because they are female. It's up to men if they don't want them in male only spaces (I believe some gay sauna customers have complained). On the whole, aside from the few tm who pass very well, they are not clamouring to get into male prisons, hospital wards, changing rooms, toilets etc.

Why do you think that is?

That doesn't make it law

I'm aware of that. It was a play on Frack's words. Sorry it it wasn't clear.

And if we ban trans women from places, we have to ban trans men too. Who you see as women. Should they suffer because of a fear of trans women?

Firstly it's not a "fear of trans women". It's an assertion of the rights of women to female spaces when they are vulnerable. This is both for safeguarding and also privacy and dignity. Which I've said. You're like a broken record.

Secondly, no one is advocating banning anyone from places they should be in. So FTMs are entitled to use women's spaces, as they are female.

wouldn't**

Well yes, it's law in the sense that it's not illegal.

That doesn't make it law. Self ID being enshrined in law means sex segregation would exist, and it does.

But no it's not illegal for someone to claim to be another sex, but no one is claiming it is.

Well yes, it's law in the sense that it's not illegal.

Self id is already law.

No it's not.

Self id is already law.

Look, we can find correlations all over the place. Why not ban men from pubs? Or from primary schools? Far more women are hurt by drunk men than by trans women. Far more children are hurt by men in jobs where they have access to children.

And if we ban trans women from places, we have to ban trans men too. Who you see as women. Should they suffer because of a fear of trans women?

We don't need to now. It's done. So if you want to make your point in order to exclude trans people, you're going to need to collect the evidence.

Ooh, unlucky there. If laws have been misused, misapplied and misrepresented, we do not need to argue the original case again. We merely need to show the law has not been followed and we're in the process of doing exactly that.

it's not done though, Self ID is not the law. Although lots of guidelines have been issued already.

The law is still sex based.

You may be interested in this thread. these are things that we are told will never happen.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Please provide your stats for males who identify as trans being attacked by males under all of these aspects.

Because Chesterton's Fence applies to this situation, those who seek to change existing safeguarding must prove that their proposals do not increase risk to those being safeguarded.

So, where are your stats proving that women habe not been attacked by males identifying or claiming to identify as trans?

My local supermarket is one where such a male committed a sexual assault in the ladies, under specific circumstances that would not have happened if the Eqality Act was being followed, so I'm singularly unimpressed both with your refusal to even link a single study and your demand to provide statistics you know we cannot provide precisely because the police is recording males who identify as trans in the crime statistics as female. We do have statistically significant increases in sexual crimes recorded as female crime though which will eventually be shown to be due to males.

Anyway, let's focus on the real issue with your demand:

"Do we have specific UK stats comparing numbers for five years before and five years after the Equality Act 2010"

You still don't seem to understand how the Eqality Act and the sex-based exemptions within it work. It did not give permission to persons identifying as trans to use opposite-sex facilities.

Nine years ago anyone referring to males using female-only facilities was talking about post-op transsexuals. This group is still widely assumed to be the one being debated today. But your very own choice of words shows that's not who we are talking about - yet the Eqality Act made no provisions at all for those claiming a trans identity.

It refers explicitly to transsexuals (those with a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria and seeking to, undergoing or having undergone a medical transition). So, demonstrably, the Equality Act only allowed access to opposite-sex provisions to those who had changed their legal sex on the proviso that even they could be excluded from single-sex provisions if this was necessary.

So this assumed access by males purely on the basis of self-id, which underlies your demand for statistics did not happen back then. It is increasingly discussed now because only now is it happening in any significant numbers.

We don't need to now. It's done. So if you want to make your point in order to exclude trans people, you're going to need to collect the evidence.