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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men only job

163 replies

SuperMeerkat · 12/10/2019 14:38

First time post, long time lurker. I spotted a job that was for men only, sexual health clinic support worker. Advert said ‘exempt under gender discrimination laws etc’ What would happen if a woman applied saying she identified as a man? Or if you were non-binary like I think Sam Smith is? I don’t want the job, just wondering really.

OP posts:
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 13/10/2019 20:56

Jonathan Yanniv - the pervert lurking in the ladies, taking photos IS a trans woman, @pineapple86 - I couldn’t remember their ‘female’ name when I wrote the post.

Dr Rachel McKinnon is a trans woman who was a mediocre cyclist when competing as a male, but has won a world record now they are identifying as female.

There is a person working in the City of London who is biologically male but identifies as female some days - and has won a woman in business award despite identifying as female only part time!

this Quillette article talks about the male bodied, violent criminals who are identifying as female and being put into women’s prisons.

This section of the article was particularly shocking to me:

”Matthew Harks recently was released from the Grand Valley Institution for Women in Ontario. He is a serial pedophile who has been convicted of three sexual assaults against girls under the age of 8. He has claimed to have abused 60 girls and to have committed 200 offenses. A 2006 psychiatric assessment of Harks maintained that he has an “all-encompassing preoccupation with sexually abusing underage girls.” Like Laboucan, Harks has undergone SRS, but this has not stopped him from facing multiple accusations of harassment and assault while incarcerated in a women’s prison. In 2016, the Calgary Herald reported that Harks was potentially facing charges for “three alleged offences that took place recently while [Harks] was in custody: assault, unlawful confinement and sexual assault.” The Vancouver Sun has reported that Harks has assaulted two female inmates who were “childlike in appearance.”

The commonly held belief that a castrated male offender poses minimal threat to females is a myth. There is certainly no rational reason why a male serial predator should be housed with women, many of whom have a history of being abused by men. Offenders are sent to prison as punishment. They are not sent to prison to be punished; and locking these women in with violent men is cruel and unusual punishment. It is well established that men and women have vastly different patterns of criminality. It is a basic fact that men are physically stronger than women, and that they regularly take advantage of this fact in every imaginable context to dominate and abuse women.

On September 17, 2019, a grievance was filed by a formerly incarcerated Indigenous woman who maintains that CSC staff were aware that she was being harassed by Harks during her incarceration at Grand Valley, and that they failed to intervene. She has a history of childhood sexual abuse that was perpetrated by a male; and so her confinement with Harks, and the failure of CSC to relocate her, was deeply triggering. She is citing multiple violations of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act.

Harks’ alleged harassment of this woman (a copy of whose grievance I have in my possession) included following her around, as well as telling her she was the reason he was at Grand Valley. On one occasion, he reportedly told her he was “horny.” On another, this convicted pedophile told her she had a “young spirit.” She alleges he met her outside the washroom and asked if she was menstruating. She recognized this continual disrespect of her boundaries as typical grooming behaviour (priming for abuse), and this had a negative effect on her mental health. She became “very fearful, and spiraled into a trauma response with nightmares, sleeplessness and flashbacks.” As there is no trauma therapy available in prison, the reduced functioning she experienced as a result of her symptoms led to threats of segregation from the rest of the prison population. She is citing discrimination on the basis of sex and Indigeneity. (Despite comprising only about 4.3% of Canadian women, Indigenous women make up 40% of federally incarcerated women.)”

Pineapplemonkey86 · 13/10/2019 20:20

I believe in prison reform as our justice system is woefully inadequate and as part of that I don't believe you should have people with a history of sexual violence should be in general population. That is part of a much wider conversation.

Transgender women are not men. Do you think a transgender woman who has lived as a woman for several years should be in a male prison?

Fraggling · 13/10/2019 20:02

Oh just seen latest post

Bingo card list of why men need to be allowed anywhere women are vulnerable.

Including the classic, women are sexual predators as well so it's silly for women to be cautious around men.

Fraggling · 13/10/2019 19:58

'I don't think Karen White should have been allowed to transfer to a woman's prison due to her criminal history. I think this is the case for anyone who has history of sexual violence against women.'

So a woman who sexually assaulted another woman would need to go in a men's prison.

Uh huh.

pineapple86 · 13/10/2019 19:46

I work for an organisation that only employs women. I understand what the OP was asking and was initially why I opened the thread. However, instead of it being an actual conversation it turned into an opportunity for people to spread their bigoted views that have no basis in evidence or fact.

Yes of course you will be able to find individual examples of transgender people committing sexually violent crimes, there will be evil acts in all walks of life. I could tell you some utterly horrific stories of women being sexually abused by other women, including children abused by their own mothers. Do I take these examples and make sweeping generalisations about women, or mothers? Of course not. Does the fact that these cases are not 'the norm' make them any less horrific and traumatising for the victims? Of course not.

"Transwomen commit sexual offences at the same rate as men and at a much higher rate than women" Where on earth did you get this statistic from? Everything I have read on the subject says the opposite.

Comparing transgender women to perverts lurking in women's toilets taking pictures of children is ludicrous and so damaging. The amount of hate crime and discrimination transgender women experience is tragic and perpetuating myths that trans people are dangerous, perverted and a threat to society legitimising these crimes and discrimination. To say transgender women are privileged is laughable. They may not have had the same experiences as cis gender women but there have certainly not experienced what cis gender men experience.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/key_facts_and_findings-_transgender_0.pdf

Throughout history whenever there is a surge forward in equal rights there is a backlash. History will not look fondly on these views spouted here, just like it does not look favourably on people who were convinced all gay men were predatory paedophiles or that marriage should be an exclusively heterosexual institution.

transequality.org/what-experts-say

OhHolyJesus · 13/10/2019 16:27

To your point pineapple it doesn't matter how someone 'identifies' a crime is a crime is a crime.

Men are men
Women are women

Sexuality or what someone thinks they are doesn't come into.

Gay male prisoners are not kept in separate prisons from heterosexual male prisoners.

Men who rape other men, might not be gay or think of themselves as gay, frankly it makes no difference, if they raped someone they are a rapist.

Men and women are entitled to privacy, dignity and single sex spaces and for this purpose the job ad can state that only men need apply.

Knewmee · 13/10/2019 16:17

Men who identify as women have benefitted from male privilege throughout their lives, and continue to do so- simply look at the vast influence and financial clout their campaign groups have and the deferential way in which they are treated, the sycophantic press coverage, the woman of the year awards, etc. So, yes, transwomen are privileged in ways that women are not. Because female oppression is rooted in biology, and ..... transwomen do not have female biology. Never have, never will.

The OP is absolutely not pointless as Pineapple suggested. To understand how a law works you need to stress test it against a huge range of situations, some real and some hypothetical. It is a vital part of effective legal analysis.

On the OP, the Equality Act permits this job to be offered to a man only, and to exclude people who simply identify as men. This is about men’s privacy and dignity and should be allowed, just as women should have their privacy and dignity respected.Jobs like this are about providing care, support, and medical help, often to vulnerable and disadvantaged people, in situations of great stress and unhappiness - not about validating the feelings of applicants.

OhHolyJesus · 13/10/2019 15:59

Anyone who refers to Karen White as she or her tells you all you need to know about where this person puts women in their particular version of feminism.

MIdgebabe · 13/10/2019 15:52

Transwomen commit sexual offences at the same rate as men and at a much higher rate than women.

The evidence comes from the uk prison population. Hence for areas of life where women are given some safeguards, those safeguards Must be on the basis of sex not identity or gender.

Yes transwomen get attacked. Yes that is sad. There is however no evidence that they suffer more violence than men in general. ( Excluding those who take to prostitution) we know men suffer from violence at the hands of other men.

women are no more likely to want to give up their safeguards to transwomen than to men in general . Because transwomen behave like men.

Given all that, why should transwomen be classed as women again?

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 13/10/2019 15:42

Ignoramuses? Ignorami? Confused

@Pineapplemonkey86 - self-ID is already harming biological women - Karen White is a good example. So is Jonathan Yanniv, who lurks in Ladies’ loos taking pictures with young girls in the background, and musing on Twitter about whether they could offer to ‘help’ a young girl,insert her first tampon. Then there is Women’s sport, where a natal male is taking Women’s world records in cycling, and others are winning all the medals in races. And what about the lesbians who are being told by trans women who have a ‘lady dick’ instead of a penis Hmm that they should get over their genital preferences/hang ups and that they can learn to cope with penetrative sex with these male-bodied trans women who are, apparently, lesbians.

Nope - you are right - no-one is suffering or being disadvantaged in any way because of self-ID. Well - no biological males are - which is pretty much the same thing, in their minds.

Pineapplemonkey86 · 13/10/2019 15:27

I don't think Karen White should have been allowed to transfer to a woman's prison due to her criminal history. I think this is the case for anyone who has history of sexual violence against women.

A lot of rape and sexual assault against homosexuality men is perpetrated by men who identify as heterosexual. This is not surprising when you consider that rape is less about sexual gratification than it is about power, control and domination. I'm out atm so don't have a lot of studies to link to but after a quick Google:

The vast majority of male offenders who sexually abuse or assault other men identify themselves as heterosexual. Some offenders target males simply because it gives them a greater feeling of dominance, power and control than abusing a woman. Sexual assault is usually much more about violence and anger than it is about lust or sexual attraction. The vast majority of males who target boys for sexual abuse aren’t gay.
aasas.ca/support-and-information/men-and-sexual-assault/

Fraggling · 13/10/2019 12:13

What do you think should have happened to Karen?

She needs protection and a voice.

Other bedicked people are currently incarcerated with women in prisons around the world btw.

It was before the victorians I think that things were changed at women's prisons. They were free brothels basically. The women not consenting obviously. Putting men back in, feels a tad regressive. At least they aren't inviting men in though. As far as I know anyway.

Fraggling · 13/10/2019 12:10

'Through my work I know sex offenders are disproportionately likely to be heterosexual men'

Gay men are at a population level less likely percentage wise to be sex offenders than heterosexual men? That's fascinating. I've not heard that before.

Do you have any stats to back that up?

Pineapplemonkey86 · 13/10/2019 11:34

Male predators do not need to identify as women to have access to women.

Yes the example of Karen White is horrendous and should not have been allowed to happen. It is reflective of a justice system that does not understand transgender issues and a justice system that does not keep women safe. However, the issue of sexual abuse in prisons is a huge, huge issue and needs serious, robust investigation and reform to better protect people who are incarcerated from staff and other sexually violent inmates. It is not an excuse to justify transphobia.

As I said, I work daily with women who have been sexually abused and I see how retraumatising it is to not be believed. That is not what I am doing here. There is no evidence to say transgender women are a threat to women. I am saying that from both an evidence based statistical perspective and a lived experience of working my with victims/survivors. The vast, vast majority of sexual offenders are cisgender, heterosexual men that are well known to their victims.

Please remember that transgender women have statistically a very high chance of being sexually assaulted, those women need protection and a voice too.

Inebriati · 13/10/2019 10:29

Self ID allows any male predator to access women only spaces and services, how is that difficult for you to understand? Stop telling women we are lying or hysterical.

The harm caused is not a myth. Ask any of the women who have been harmed instead of ignoring them and pretending they don't exist.

You could start with the woman raped by Karen White in a psychiatric unit. Or any of his 4 victims in a women's prison.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3716238-Quillette-Article-the-stats-about-trans-in-women-s-prison

Pineapplemonkey86 · 13/10/2019 10:00

Inebriati, I agree, however I don't see how that is relevant to this post? I assume you're talking about the myth that accepting transgender women into women's spaces somehow is a threat to women? That's not what this post was about and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest this is the case.

Inebriati · 13/10/2019 09:47

It's disgusting that there are men and women are happy to allow abusers to continue unchallenged, and to remove safeguarding from women and girls.
Its anti feminist, and its not a good look.

Pineapplemonkey86 · 13/10/2019 09:34

I work for a charity supporting women who have been sexually assaulted, I very much care about women and girls.
Through my work I know sex offenders are disproportionately likely to be heterosexual men and transgender women are statistically at high risk of being sexually assaulted but less likely to receive appropriate help.

Statements like, 'The trans privilege thing" (that really does not exist), "TRAs hate women having their space but men are usually allowed theirs" and thirdfiddle's entire post are based on nothing but bigotry and misinformation. Can anyone here actually they have experienced this?

I'm ignoring the posts comparing me to an animal flinging feaces and masturbating in a zoo for obvious reasons.

Posts like this are what is giving feminism and Mumsnet a bad name.

Fraggling · 12/10/2019 22:56

Oh when I say it was seen as normal I was thinking benny Hill, carry on, porkies. I grew up in late 70s early 80s. Idea that men would a. Always be keen to see a woman taking her clothes off even if it was non consensual ie he was spying and b. This was totally normal male behaviour was all over tv, films etc

And girls and women know what men can be like.

That's why we have sex segregated stuff in the first place.

No one really thinks that male humans have abruptly evolved.

They just don't care about women and girls.

This apparently is a bigoted view? Come off it.

Fraggling · 12/10/2019 22:51

That's an intetesting point.

Women are unlikely to apply for this role as generally, women are way way less likely to be intrusive, sexually predatory, and if they do, yes they could cause trouble but generally the physical aspect gives a different power balance.

Men otoh are v likely to seek vulnerable women and children and do it all the time. And men as well. Namalt.

I don't understand why the prevalence of male dodgy sexual behaviour vs women is glossed over so much.

I mean the idea that pervy men, in fact normal men. want in with the women or to spy on them when undressing etc was a standard thing when I was growing up. It was seen as normal. Women do not in general, are rarely presented this way in media, and real life stats backs it up.

Why is it only women who are saying this is a problem? I suppose the whole 'bros before ho's' thing. Plus, most men don't know, and neither do most women.

StrangeLookingParasite · 12/10/2019 22:09

at the local nature reserve they upgraded from poo and weeing on you to furious masturbation (and they got quite the distance with their ejaculate)

So unlike the homelife of our dear Queen.

butteryellow · 12/10/2019 22:00

Why do ignoramuses fling around words like bigotry, like monkeys flinging poo?

Could be worse, at the local nature reserve they upgraded from poo and weeing on you to furious masterbation (and they got quite the distance with their ejaculate)

hmmm.. perhaps not so different after all.

Cynara · 12/10/2019 21:57

Check your hyperbole

^This

StrangeLookingParasite · 12/10/2019 21:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SquirrelsInJune · 12/10/2019 21:46

"You know you're all getting angry at a fictional situation right?"

Where's the anger? Confused
People are having a discussion.

"everyone is foaming at the mouth"

They're really not.

Check your hyperbole.