Isn't Helen Webberley still prevented from providing services in UK?

Just out of interest, how does one say "own goal" in a gender friendly way?

Found it!

Pretty sure our girl’s sudden cross sex identity is driven by distress at puberty, lesbophobic bullying in school, social awkwardness, a rejection of the ‘orange girls’ (fake tan) femininity in school combined with the trauma of almost losing her little sister to a rare cancer-like immune disorder. She was then catcalled by an adult man for the first time age 13 and started wearing two sports bras at once, passed out in PE and was sent to the school counsellor who suggested she might hate her breasts because she’s non binary or a transman. She looked up JammiDodger on YouTube and now she wants a double mastectomy.

She’s never been forced into gender roles or expected to conform to any particular visual standard (we’re an Addams family) and she’s always known trans people existed (one of my husband’s best friends is married to a very glam, very striking, but way too tall to be female TS) so her sudden revelation isn’t due to only just learning about trans people.

For her, the gender distress is sincere, but it’s more like an eating disorder or self harm via cutting. She doesn’t believe she is a boy, or was meant to be a boy, she just doesn’t much like how growing into a woman is going. She believes she’d be happier if people assumed she’s a boy.

Who can blame her? Puberty is shit for pretty much everyone, including the ‘orange girls’ who are just wearing a different mask.

If she’d been really GNC her whole life and come to us age 21+ saying she wanted to transition, we’d probably have been scared for her future but accepting. Same if we were living in a different era.

I think the ‘something’ is probably lots of things combining to a perfect storm, one of the things might be a generation of teenagers who are seeing hardcore porn online before they even reach full sexual maturity. A lot of it is fucking terrifying, who would want to grow up to be a woman if it means being subjected to stuff like that? And you can’t protect them from it, even if you have controls on their devices and your home internet, some of the other kids won’t.

In my day all you’d seen at 13 is a few pages from a discarded copy of Razzle, found in a bush. That was so long ago that the women actually had bushes (overdue a comeback, imo).

I just wanted to clarify - I have no problem whatsoever with trans care being funded by the NHS - I have a problem with doctors who've been deemed unfit to practise being supported by the NHS. People with dysphoria and trans identifying people deserve the same quality and standard of care as anyone else - I'm always a bit surprised that anyone would be willing to put themselves in the hands of doctors who've been struck off.

Professional panel at the MCR detransitioners event

Report of the event from Feminist Current
(extract)
" [David] Bell even finds the terminology “puberty blockers” to be “targeted,” as it sugar-coats what he describes as “potent drugs” that are inevitably accompanied by additional consequential effects.

“The body isn’t like a video recorder that you can just put on pause,” he said.

[Dr Hannah] Ryan expressed empathy towards her fellow researchers. She said they are battling “immense pressure” to alleviate the suffering of patients struggling with dysphoria and affirm patients’ gender identity without question or intervention. Hutchinson, who worked in GIDS for five years, noted that clinicians can be accused of transphobia for merely “talking about evidence.”

“But how can it be transphobic to ask for better standards of care for this client group? I want better standards of care for kids with gender dysphoria,” she said, to loud applause.

Another former GIDS employee in the audience claimed that medical experts face both external and internal pressures. Most feel prohibited from talking about the possibility of desistence and detransition entirely. Bell agreed: manoeuvrability to investigate and conduct research on desistence seems almost impossible when the trans movement “has penetrated into clinical services,” and cannot be questioned, challenged, or exposed. Bell said the extent to which gender ideology has “the ears of politicians right up the highest level” as well as control over much of the media was remarkable. “It has sort of gone through unquestioned,” he said. O’Malley considered that this has only served the best interests of “non-experts” with a lot of social media followers, essentially allowing them to “lead the room” and act with impunity." (continues)

www.feministcurrent.com/2020/01/09/detransitioners-are-living-proof-the-practices-surrounding-trans-kids-need-be-questioned/

DuLANG

You're right, I wish you no harm, especially not by fire. Different opinions and experiences can only drive understanding. As for posing a risk to women you're right they're not my thing in that way.

We're definitely not the same, I'm assuming (big assumption I suppose) that you are female, I'm not. That said, I bet we share a massive amount of DNA similarities. As for your daughter, it's going to be difficult but I'm sure you'll support whatever turns out to be right.

The safety and boundary debate makes sense and I've said before I think as a trans person there are currently more important hills I could climb. That said, there isn't a section of society that I would support being legislated for or against based on the actions of a few outliers like Karen White. I don't condone urging kids to do anything though apart from don't put your hands in the fire and always look left and right at least twice.

The relevant bit starts at around 26 minutes. We could do with a transcript really.

Dr David Bell (adult Charing Cross GIC) talked a bit about figuring out the ‘something’ on the professional panel at the MCR detransitioners event:

The sound quality is bad so you can’t really listen while doing other things, sadly!

I think you underestimate how much of sexuality (especially fetish) is in the mind!

Blanchard’s theory is actually quite complex, i was annoyed by Contrapoints’ over simplification in the AGP video (I can’t be AGP, I’m not exclusively attracted to women! 🙄) and the latest one (‘Shame’) is a text book guide to the AGP mind whilst never even mentioning the word!

I think that less gatekeeping means new presentations, AGPs are transitioning younger, for starters.
Anyway, I doubt you have much in common with a typical Reddit knee-socks-cat-ears ‘egg hatching /traaa poster. They just tell us to die in a fire.

For what it’s worth Stats I don’t think you wish me or my child harm.

I don’t think you and I are the same and I don’t believe my daughter has the same condition as you, although the symptoms do manifest similarly.

I’ve had lots of HSTS acquaintances over the years, (some of whom I have adored) and I don’t believe HSTS pose the same risks to women as AGPs (although there are some vicious HSTS queens out there, especially in the media world!).
HSTS are generally the people that the average woman on the street thinks kindly of (although those I have known aren’t nearly as pathetic and in need of protection as modern trans activism seems to suggest).

The problem is, the door was opened by April Ashley and Christine Jorgensen and Karen White and Jessica Yaniv pushed through it.
Now women want to draw new boundaries and there is no way to write a law that lets you in and keeps Zoe Lyons out.

Rachel McKinnon urges kids like my daughter to run away and join a ‘glitter family’. Monroe Bergdorf invites minors to private DM discussions. Our kids are being groomed and creepy doctors like Webberley, who smash through gatekeeping and safeguarding protocols, are part of it.

And doctors like Zucker, who tried to proceed cautiously with gender distressed kids are hounded out of their jobs by adult transactivists and get falsely accused of sex crimes on telly by a hysterical Shon Faye

This documentary was shown once and then pulled due to the outcry:

vimeo.com/217950594

I wish I could find that Zucker/Faye clip, but I suspect the names aren’t on it so it’s hard to search for!

I'm in no way qualified to speak about the rise in presentation amongst young girls

No that's clear.

It isnt just girls
The findings by Professor Carl Henghan & the Safeguarding whistle blown concerns by professionals who have worked at NHS Tavistock GIDS also affect boys (under 18 years old)

BMJ
The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research. Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms, including death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice."
blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

BMJ

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles" (continues)

www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490

maybe a particular factor(s) were present between 2014 and 2016 that could relate?

I am Leo was first shown in 2014, featuring Polly Carmichael telling children that puberty blockers were a 'harmless pause button'. This may have had something to do with the increase in numbers of girls presenting as trans.

www.transgendertrend.com/uk-cbbc-childrens-tv-i-am-leo/

DuLANG

I'm in no way qualified to speak about the rise in presentation amongst young girls. A rise in general presentation could be explained some way by more people willing to come forward but with the girls it's clear something else is at play. It would be interesting to see how the incidence of those referred moving onto treatment compares with boys? I'd hypothesise that something else is at play and the majority will not go on to treatment. What is concerning is what is at play? That the rate of increase has started to taper off is also interesting suggesting that maybe a particular factor(s) were present between 2014 and 2016 that could relate?

As for the AGP/HSTS theory, both exsist. I would say I'm technically HSTS but I think things are much more complex than that. What I do struggle with understanding though is that if an AGP is driven by a sexual desire which is driven by testosterone, wouldn't the sexual desire just go away on administration of an anti androgen which kills testosterone (especially if a Gnrh analogue is used) ? It would most certainly not be present in the same way if at all post orchiectomy/vaginoplasty. I believe one if not a couple of prominent trans GC characters have recently disclosed their AGP status. That can't be nice for their families. Perhaps they'll elaborate sometime?

Transgender Trend
"A full investigation is hampered by a political narrative which casts these girls as brave transgender youth, free at last to be their authentic selves through greater awareness and acceptance of transgender people throughout society. No proper inquiry can take place while the government is in thrall to a powerful transgender lobby which dictates the lens through which we must view these girls and frames anything else as transphobia. The only answers we will get will be by examining the referral rates of girls within a context of adolescent girls’ mental health. We must ask the question ‘why are so many girls unhappy and distressed about being girls?’

Behind these statistics are individual, vulnerable children. If one single case demonstrates the need for an inquiry, it is the tragic suicide of one such girl. The background of the case of Jayden Lowe is typical of the troubled cohort now coming forward to the Tavistock." (continues)

www.transgendertrend.com/surge-referral-rates-girls-tavistock-continues-rise/

These whistle blown concerns are a matter of public record & an inquiry is long overdue into the care of vulnerable young people by both NHS & private medical practice:

February 2019
"The true histories of “highly disturbed or complex” child patients were not properly explored by Gids clinicians struggling with “huge and unmanageable caseloads” and afraid of being accused of transphobia if they questioned the “rehearsed” surface presentation. The report says the concerns voiced by staff are shared by Sonia Appleby, who is in charge of safeguarding at the trust."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3509817-Times-16-2-1-9-Staff-at-trans-clinic-fear-damage-to-children

womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/17/the-natal-female-question/

I’m pretty much having the same conversation with two MTF transsexuals simultaneously across two threads (although the other person has denied that HSTS/AGP is a thing so I’m guessing they are AGP).

For clarification, the thing many of our daughters are currently facing is not the classic ‘transman’ presentation of GD (which is thought to mostly be the female version of HSTS, although it’s less two groups and more of a continuum in female people). Many of Webberley’s patients will be the kind of young woman described below. They should not be diagnosed via Skype and sent testosterone in the post.

I’m copying the following over for the attention of Stats

If you only read one thing on ROGD, make it this one, written by GIDs employees (I know it’s on WPUK, but despite the rumours, WPUK are actually very MTF transsexual friendly, it’s why some feminists criticise them - they get it from both sides, basically)

Extract:

Crucially, it is important to acknowledge, that girls and young women have long recruited their bodies as ways of expressing misery and self-hatred. Bodies become the site onto which they can project their perceived failure to live up to society’s expectations of them and also their internal, psychic pain. Psychic pain that arises out of the manifold implications of being a suffering human being: trauma, abuse, neglect, bullying, social ostracism, bereavement to name but a few. Also, for some, the fear of leaving childhood behind, the terror of female adulthood, is overwhelming.

It is not unreasonable to hypothesise that developing gender dysphoria, and alighting on a trans identity as the way of understanding, can, in some instances, be the solution (cure) to the ‘problem’ of being born female. It could be the ultimate act of self-harm. A form of self-harm hardly noticeable to many because it is so aligned with the disavowed but ever present attack on gender non-conforming women that exists throughout society.

We cannot ignore the role of the internet in this; whether cyber bullying, competitive instagram, exposure to pornography, sexualisation or the associated phenomenon of a sort of social and collective influencing. We know that there is a parallel world of on-line engagement where children and young people are engaging globally out of sight of any mediating influence or alternative explanation for their distress.

Whatever influencing factors, both exogenous / social and endogenous / psychological, there might be these are all happening within the wider context of the decimation of local child and adolescent mental health services (CAMHS) over the last decade. We are seeing a generation of young people emerge who have been poorly served by local specialist provision: a phenomenon recognised and documented here.

In the clinical setting we have become familiar with narratives, especially in younger children, resting almost entirely on the most superficial of signifiers: toys, activities, hair, clothes, a certain aesthetic upon which effectively the (self) diagnosis of trans is made, and a social role transition affected. Unfortunately these tropes are compounded and perpetuated by some “diversity” trainings delivered in schools.

womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/17/the-natal-female-question/

My understanding from what I can read From what is that Jayden was desperately unhappy about his situation commenting that he couldn't go on because of his feelings and distress. Reports suggest he waited two years to see a specialist at GIDS before passing the age limit and being referred on to the adult service where he expected to then wait up to another four years for an appointment. Six years with very little help is not a nice prospect especially as a teenager. They suggest in desperation he turned to the W's and was prescribed a cross sex hormone. I'm not a coroner but I'd struggle on the basis of those reports to attribute the cause of death as being driven by the cross sex hormone treatment. That's not to say that there were no questions to answer.

For what it's worth, I'm tax payer funded and I've never been a patient of the W's.

An example of this is that (as I have said before) Gendergp has and still offers shared care agreements with NHS doctors. My Testosterone and hormone blockers are provided by the NHS on an NHS prescription (not private private prescription) with the guidance from the team of specialists at Gender GP who monitor my hormone levels and ask my NHS GP to adjust my levels accordingly.

This description by Cw19752 is very concerning.
Clearly Cw is a loyal patient/customer of the Drs Webberley (both currently suspended by the GMC) whose unregulated online business Gender GP relocated to Spain after being successfully prosecuted in UK.

threads
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3598778-Dr-Helen-and-Dr-Mike-Webberley-matters-of-public-record
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3625515-Patient-of-webberlys-commits-suicide

paleblue

For me, medical transition isn't an outcome, it's the vehicle that lets some, not all arrive at a position where they feel comfortable or at least a lot more comfortable than before. I personally don't really know what the cause of my dysphoria was, I don't suppose I ever will. I suspect it's likely a mixture of exposure to certain levels of hormone during gestation and my social interactions with the world but, I've learned not to let it take up too much of my time, it's caused enough trouble already. I couldn't say whether I'd have preferred it not to be this way as i have no real way of knowing.

I wouldn't say there's one way to treat the symptoms of GD or a best way to treat GD but medical transition has worked for me. A bit like pain scoring, I started off at 10 I'm now at about 2 or 3 and feel reasonably healthy and fit for my age so it hasn't been too bad. I'm sure some can achieve the same through limited physical presentation or just HRT but, if there's a hard way, I'll find it.

A bit DuLang and others have mentioned above though, I'm sometimes a bit surprised at the hills certain people pick to die on or branches as they put it. There are far more worthy causes to fight for trans wise than ones that risk losing what has been a level of trust with a natural ally for what I consider personally to be very little gain.

Despite a few wily people, TRAs seem to have a bizarre need to champion the very worst aspects of their religion's practice, thereby sawing off the branch they're sitting in. It's so odd.

This

So good it’s worth repeating again!

Despite a few wily people, TRAs seem to have a bizarre need to champion the very worst aspects of their religion's practice, thereby sawing off the branch they're sitting in. It's so odd.

This.

The Wirral Gender Support Service has just been suspended.

Announcement from the horses mouth on Reddit

Regardless of the reasons for dismissal, there is plenty in that to indicate issues with professional boundaries, Safeguarding & ethical practise.

So you are saying that medical transition is a good outcome for anyone with gender dysphoria, whatever the cause of the cause of that dysphoria?

Sorry, I am not trying too be difficult, rather that this For me, because no matter how hard i tried i could not come to terms with my own body. I do think being able to do so would have been easier but I couldn't suggests that you would prefer to have been able to come to terms with your own body than to medically transition.

Perhaos, in fact you are saying that everyone with gender dysphoria is transsexual and for everyone who is transsexual the only way to alleviate the symptoms is medical transition? It might seem like I am labouring the point, but I am really trying to understand your position.

Guardian 2013 linked above

'Doctor under fire for alleged errors prescribing sex-change hormones
This article is more than 7 years old
Dr Richard Curtis is under investigation following complaints over treatment of patients seeking gender reassignment'
(extract)
"One patient allegedly underwent surgery within 12 months of their first appointment. He is also accused of administering hormones to patients aged under 18 without an adequate assessment, and wrongly stating that a patient seeking gender reassignment had changed their name.

One of the most serious cases concerns a female patient who regrets switching to a male role. She underwent hormone treatment and had her breasts removed. The woman is one of the complainants in the current GMC investigation.

Other cases include patients who were allegedly prescribed hormones at age 16. (continues)

That case divided transsexual experts and support groups. It was brought after complaints from four psychiatrists, two of whom were colleagues of Reid at the Charing Cross hospital gender identity clinic, and one of the patients.

Curtis took over Reid's private practice in Earls Court, west London, in February 2006. In a press release issued in November 2005, Curtis said: "I will be practising according to the Harry Benjamin Guidelines but will treat each case sensitively and advise according to an individual's specific circumstances much in the same way as Dr Reid."

Harry Benjamin was hardly a model of medical ethics though was he?

And then there was Dr Curtis, of course:

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/06/transexualism-gender-reassignment-richard-curtis

DuLang

I can't answer that then, you'd need a trans man to tell you of any problems with their travel and as a HSTS my experience is only my own.

Quentin

Hormone therapy and surgeries made sure that is no longer so much of a problem but, on occasion it happens. I prefer to describe it as stupidity as oppose to homophobia, I feel for them. Being so angry must be hard.

Paleblue

Not if you have gender dysphoria but, I do agree that not having dysphoria is likely to lead to an altogether more comfortable experience although, life is fraught with all sorts of difficulties for everyone so you just never know. P

WeAreGerbil

The simple answer is, I don't know. I'd love to know why but, I suspect in the 50 or so (if I'm lucky) years I'm likely to have left I won't find out. I've gone beyond the point where it causes me to lose sleep.

The Wirral Gender Support Service has just been suspended.

Announcement from the horses mouth on Reddit