Foster children (3 and 7) transitioning. Times article

Oh ok thanks for the reply I did check my emails but nothing, never been deleted before, hardly ever post!

There have been a few deletions, Fire.

I didn't see anything problematic on any of the posts when I read them yesterday.

You should have had an email from MNHQ, explaining the reasons. If not, ask them to explain why they've deleted. They will reinstate if they feel that they have made a mistake.

Wow

I am absolutely stunned, I just popped back to read this thread and see my perfectly tame, polite, factual post has been deleted for breaking 'guidelines'

With all the nasty, Vicious things that are allowed to slide on Mumsnet I'm genuinely curious as to what on earth I said that could have offended.

Anybody any idea?

I said something along the lines of finding it very sad as I am a foster carer and that the toddler was probably already traumatised in some way.

Way younger than 3. This child cannot have been older than 20 months when concerns were first raised in August 2013.

Adults with borderline personality disorder often report lots of childhood trauma. One of the defining characteristics of Bpd is a weak sense of identity or self, another is a feeling of emptiness. In those Circs, particularly if there has been sexual abuse, becoming someone else entirely can seem really attractive.But still not getting past younger child being 3.

The Spectator has picked up this story too:

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/the-danger-of-letting-children-transition-gender-too-early/

by Leyla Sanai

Not adding anything extra, but at least it's continuing to raise awareness.

Its really striking, and suggests there is a widespread problem with social services (which there is plenty of evidence for) and Lisa Muggeridge made a point about. Within this, kids are falling through the cracks and almost fitting in with the ideas that politicians are pushing on an idealogical level. As such they are doubly invisible to those ultimately responsible for the services, because a) the local councillors have no idea of the failure of child protection services more generally b) are willfully blind to issues relating particularly to the trans ideology because they believe in trans ideology without question.

This is exactly what I mean by the most voiceless and powerless group you can imagine. These structures are supposed to be their voices.

Maybe I’m being over sensitive, but I have commented because I am caring for a child who was removed from biological parents because of very serious concerns and trauma, and who has dysmorphia and gender issues which are connected to the very serious trauma she has undergone. So I am not trying to hijack this thread I have current knowledge of Care proceedings, childhood trauma, and Childrens Services, and I have learnt loads from coming here.

I wasn't speaking to any individual at all. Certainly not you, lovey!

I was trying to refocus the thread where it belongs: on Looked After children who have been removed from the usual source of protection (their families) due to trauma and abuse and who are entirely at the whims of the state and its various proxies - family courts, SS, and yes, foster parents (as a group, not individually). A more powerless group of children does not exist.

We know that childhood trauma leads to issues of identity formation very often - including, but certainly not limited to, trans identities. That the entire state apparatus involved in these children's care has ended in a court judgement that entirely dismissed this long-held knowledge is the topic of the thread.

That normal, loving families dealing with ROGD have few resources to call upon other than extremist gender ideology lobby groups is an important issue. But one for a different thread.

It is important to realise we are talking about real children, often with very concerned parents/carers

Its important to engage with the reality of the situation for some children who have been profoundly harmed by parents/carers.

Last year a woman called Debbie shared her story in the hope that others might learn from it. Debbie was profoundly affected by being sexually abused as a child by her father. This and the complex PTSD she had were not identified until she was in her 60's and had been wrongly affirmed as having a male 'gender identity' & being transgender.

Mirror,
"I'm still Debbie": Man reveals sex change was "greatest mistake" - and he wants to be a woman again
Lee Harries wasn't transgender - but instead was a woman suffering with horrific complex PTSD, after years of sexual abuse.

(extract)
"I was traumatised by what had happened in my life and it was misdiagnosed as being transgender.

"I was vulnerable, I just though that if I wasn't a girl my life would be different, I would be different, I would be accepted and that would be it.

"I thought that becoming a man would make me worthy and I would become a different person."

He added: "I'm not a man, I am an approximation of a man.

"I wish I could wake up as Debbie and realise that the last 15 years were just as bad a nightmare."

Lee primarily blames his father for what has happened to him.

But he says he believes the private psychiatrist who started off his transition should have "picked up on the fact I was abused".

"I should have had help somewhere along the line," he said.

"Nobody ever raised the idea that I could feel like this due to trauma. Not once - until it was all done.

"I have spent my life despising my own body." (continues)

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/im-still-debbie-man-reveals-13532989

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3414138-Im-not-meant-to-be-a-bloke-Woman-who-changed-gender-to-become-man-called-Lee-says-sex-swap-was-a-huge-mistake

I saw this article the other day about Trafford (another Greater Manchester area) and how their social services are failing before the Sunday Times piece. I was tempted to post it but couldn't find a thread it fitted in well with, but this seems to be on the mark and highly relevant.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/social-care-services-trafford-failing-16241722
Social care services in Trafford are failing vulnerable children - bosses had no idea
Ofsted chiefs said local leaders 'had no awareness of the decline in services'

From the article:
Social care services in Trafford are failing vulnerable and at-risk children - and bosses had no idea, a watchdog has said.

Ofsted has rated the department 'inadequate' and demanded drastic improvements are made.

Inspectors uncovered a catalogue of failings, detailed in a damning report.

Council bosses were said to have had 'no awareness' of how bad things were - and thought services were 'good' or 'outstanding'.

and

Inspectors said that for most children, assessments do 'not fully consider their past life experiences'.

Only a minority of kids' 'wishes and feelings' are well understood and recorded, the report said.

There is also insufficient analysis 'of the impact of children's experiences, and their views are not always recorded, Ofsted bosses said.

"Children’s identity needs are not well considered, particularly when children are from a black or minority ethnic background," the report added.

"This leads to ineffective analysis of risk and need for some children."

Its really striking, and suggests there is a widespread problem with social services (which there is plenty of evidence for) and Lisa Muggeridge made a point about. Within this, kids are falling through the cracks and almost fitting in with the ideas that politicians are pushing on an idealogical level. As such they are doubly invisible to those ultimately responsible for the services, because a) the local councillors have no idea of the failure of child protection services more generally b) are willfully blind to issues relating particularly to the trans ideology because they believe in trans ideology without question.

I absoluetely agree with people saying that this thread needs to be about children in care.

I will say from my own point of view as an adult who had a sibling who transitioned, that I felt unable to cope with the situation and struggled to process it and I reflect on what is publically known about the situation about Lily Madigan's family and how a sister struggled to cope. I've always described it as having a grenade go off in your family, and everything that you know as being 'fixed' is turned on its head. You can't rely on anything as being stable. Your own identity is also very much connected to your position and relationships with your siblings, in a way that you don't realise until something happened to upset that 'natural balance'.

I will then pose in that context, how is a young child from a traumatic background equiped to cope with that? I think its home situation which is particularly toxic to someone who is in foster care and I question any foster child being placed within that.

Phew that’s ok then.

Maybe I’m being over sensitive, but I have commented because I am caring for a child who was removed from biological parents because of very serious concerns and trauma, and who has dysmorphia and gender issues which are connected to the very serious trauma she has undergone.

3dogs2cats The requests for focus on this thread was specifically on the needs of children such as who you're caring for.

There's a real need for voices such as yours to be heard.

Lang. Understood. However my point was that it is hard enough for 'ordinary' parents. What is it like for foster parents needing to toe some assumed, but unknown, line.

This was in response to posts which suggested the foster parents are at fault. They may be a fault, but there are an awful lot of people in positions of responsibility that I would blame first.

to twodogsthreecats. Thank you for posting. It is important to realise we are talking about real children, often with very concerned parents/carers.

Maybe I’m being over sensitive, but I have commented because I am caring for a child who was removed from biological parents because of very serious concerns and trauma, and who has dysmorphia and gender issues which are connected to the very serious trauma she has undergone. So I am not trying to hijack this thread I have current knowledge of Care proceedings, childhood trauma, and Childrens Services, and I have learnt loads from coming here.

It's about children who do not have stable family backgrounds, who have levels of neglect, abuse and trauma in their histories so serious that they have been removed from their parents' care. These are some of the most traumatised and vulnerable children in the country. The state has taken on the role of parent for these children. They have no one else - they don't have loving parents who are doing their best even in the absence of services who aren't ideological lobby groups. They have only the state and its proxies.

These children have no voice. So please let's keep this thread about them.

This ^^

they don't have loving parents who are doing their best even in the absence of services who aren't ideological lobby groups. They have only the state and its proxies

so true

And that is precisely the situation in my family.

With respect, though, while we know there are society-wide pressures on all young girls and worry that ROGD is one manifestation of this - and that there is precious little help beyond affirmation available - this thread is not about that.

It's about children who do not have stable family backgrounds, who have levels of neglect, abuse and trauma in their histories so serious that they have been removed from their parents' care. These are some of the most traumatised and vulnerable children in the country. The state has taken on the role of parent for these children. They have no one else - they don't have loving parents who are doing their best even in the absence of services who aren't ideological lobby groups. They have only the state and its proxies.

These children have no voice. So please let's keep this thread about them.

It is incredibly difficult when everyone is falling over themselves to be right on and any questions are met with accusations of transphobia. But that’s with a teenager. When it’s a 3 year old , in my view it has to have been led by the carers.

Well I have found Transgender Trend enormously helpful. They don’t have the budget of mermaids, but they definitely have the smarts.

DuMondeB you are absolutely right. I had not thought of that. Including the social isolation, where you hesitate from confiding in friends and family because you fear being judged.

Watchful waiting is so obvious an approach. Quickly backed up by a bit of internet research. These are healthy children, who almost certainly do not need to be on a surgery/medication pathway. What is wrong with Tatchell, Jessop, Harrop, and, and, and.

The examples of problems are ones culled from the experience of families I KNOW

Heartbreaking. Seriously.
I don’t have any expertise to offer at all, but the lack of a viable alternative support system is something that is shared with transwidows - there is seemingly nothing for partners affectected by transition that isn’t a) part of the support network for the trans partner and b) intended to do anything other than help the non-trans partner learn to suck it up and squash down their own needs and feelings.

Maybe we could write a letter to every professional person who has either stepped down due to trans issues or spoken out and been attacked - an offer of support /plea for the founding of a professional organisation/ expert led charity?

DuMondeB. The examples of problems are ones culled from the experience of families I KNOW.

There is nowhere to turn. No one to support. It is so wrong.

Still happy to help write a funding bid for an organisation with the skills and capacity to provide that support.

And organisations like the NAS who are supposed to support and protect families with non-neurotypical children, but who send them down this crazy path instead.

Do not forget how difficult it now is for ordinary sensible parents who want to adopt a watchful waiting approach in thd face of ROGD

This is why I posted the link to the US news story about a teacher trying to encourage a boy to come out as trans mistakenly (Oregan, US). Society has been groomed into thinking we must affirm GNC kids as the opposite sex, in order to save them from suicide.

If a teacher/judge/parent/foster parent has bought into this, it’s not really surprising. They want to do the right thing by the child, and the ‘experts’ are seemingly only offering one pathway.

The scale of fuck up that will likely be needed to totally turn this ship around is a scary prospect, and one that has the potential to leave a lot of damaged lives (and bodies) in it’s wake.

What we need is a viable support alternative to Mermaids - so that parents at least have two modes of approach to choose from, an organisation that can bring together the voices of medical experts, experienced parents and older transpeople, detransitioners and those who suffered Dysphoria but did not transition, who can effectively advocate the ‘watch and wait’ approach.