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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A Trans Former Editor At The Times Is Suing For Transphobic Bullying And Discrimination

82 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/05/2019 09:00

www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/patrickstrudwick/times-sued-transphobic-bullying-former-editor

I found this part particularly interesting:

As well as the standard employment law charges such as discrimination and victimisation, the case also rests on an argument that has never before been tested.

O'Donnell and her lawyer — Robin White of Old Square Chambers — allege that it wasn't just what happened in the newsroom but also what those inside it published in the newspaper about trans people that constituted a hostile, transphobic place to work.

Should O’Donnell be successful, therefore, it would mean a newsroom’s output could be deemed an internal, employment issue too. News outlets may in future have to consider how their coverage of trans people and other minority groups could be in breach of employment laws that protect members of these communities on their own staff from discrimination and bullying.

From reading the article it seems that this is quite a significant part of their case and it seems that this could be quite interesting to watch.

On the one hand it can be argued that this individual was subject to horrible bullying and her pleas for her employer to stop inciting public transphobia were ignored.

On the other it could be seen as a tale of an employer who simply could not cope with the demands of their employee who were demanding that didn't consider science in their discussion of a current issue.

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FreeFreesia · 17/05/2019 20:19

It seems to me the equivalent is any woman employed by The Tines who doesn't get promoted can claim inherent cultural misogyny on the basis they publish Rod Liddle.

Persifleur · 17/05/2019 20:11

Sorry, the link got truncated (crap signal):
www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/17/times-editor-defends-papers-coverage-of-transgender-issues

Michelleoftheresistance · 17/05/2019 20:10

Surely the only relevant question is is it true?'

Because the press can't be prevented from sharing facts that upset and offend a political lobby group. Particularly facts about the suppression and oppression and removal of rights/changing and breaking of laws that protect women and children.

Persifleur · 17/05/2019 20:01

The Graun is covering the story tonight:
www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/17/times-editor-defends-papers-coverage-of-tran

practicalmagick · 17/05/2019 19:54

He seems quite out of his depth actually but can you imagine if the editor of the Daily Mail were being asked these kinds of questions about the paper's coverage of BME people and women?!

I can't imagine The Times losing this case because the implications for freedom of the press would be too huge, surely.

R0wantrees · 17/05/2019 18:43

from previous link

two of the articles referred to :

'Children sacrificed to appease trans lobby'
janice turner
(extract)
But the current trans movement is doctrinaire, uncompromising. Led by mainly older trans-women — ie born men — it won’t acknowledge women’s rights or feelings. It fights for two principles. First, “self-definition”: a person is the gender they “feel” inside, so a trans-woman “is” a woman even without physical change or while retaining male genitalia. Second, “affirmation”: everyone must acknowledge this inner gender identity. Hence the right to waltz into women’s private spaces is sacrosanct.

For months, researching the rise in referrals to gender clinics of teenage girls, I’ve been shocked at how the trans lobby, abetted by a cowed LGBT movement and deluded politicians, are prepared to sacrifice the wellbeing of children to attain those two goals.

This week the Scottish government published its transgender guidance for schools, drawn up solely by activist groups such as Mermaids. If Justine Greening implements a highly contentious women and equalities committee report, such rules will apply everywhere. On changing rooms it states: “If a learner feels uncomfortable sharing facilities with a transgender young person, they can be allowed to use a private facility . . . or to get changed after the trans young person is done.” So if a girl objects to showering with a male-bodied pupil, she must go elsewhere or wait outside. For overnight trips: “If a transgender young person is sharing a room with their peers, there is no reason for parents of the other young people to be informed.” So you have no business knowing if your daughter is sleeping alongside someone born a boy.

It recommends schools allow a child to change gender without parental consent. Moreover, if parents are not wholly behind a child’s decision: “It may be useful to approach the local authority for additional guidance”, ie report them to social services, perhaps to question custody. (continues)

concludes:
While trans children are a liberal totem, 50 more are being referred to London’s Tavistock clinic every week. “If there was a 1,000 per cent rise in six years in any other field,” said one doctor, “there would be a major inquiry. Instead no one asks why.” Because trans kids are becoming, as in the US, an industry that makes careers, brings Children in Need and Lottery grants, humanitarian prizes, plaudits, MBEs; it provides a legion of photogenic young foot-soldiers to help secure older trans demands, and for the private clinics, who’ll put your 13-year-old girl on testosterone, it is a mighty cash cow. But in a decade, when our adult children turn to ask, “Why did you let me do this? Why didn’t you stop me?” we may wonder if this was progress or child abuse."
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/children-sacrificed-to-appease-trans-lobby-bq0m2mm95

'Transgender row over sleeper train cabins'
(extract)
Some people expressed concern after it emerged that the service is provided on the basis of what sex someone self-identifies as, rather than their biological birth gender.

Mr Soames, responded to a comment on Twitter in which it was suggested “predatory males” could claim to identify as female to “gain access to women” on the service. “I think you are referring to the possibility that people may say they are a woman when in fact they are a man,” he said. “Fortunately people who travel on [the Caledonian Sleeper] are not deceitful. Never been a problem in past.”

"There have also been debates over whether transgender women should be able to stand on women-only shortlists in the Labour Party.

The dispute over the Caledonian Sleeper service begun when a user of the influential internet forum Mumsnet posted a reply to an inquiry about rules governing the service. It said: “The service is provided on the basis of the gender that the individual self-identifies with.” (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-row-on-sleeper-train-9mgndrfsv

A Trans Former Editor At The Times Is Suing For Transphobic Bullying And Discrimination
A Trans Former Editor At The Times Is Suing For Transphobic Bullying And Discrimination
WorkingItOutAsIGo · 17/05/2019 18:42

No I disagree. The Times chap is making the point that they do thousands of stories, none Is over important and there is no huge agenda on trans issues. He’s effectively saying it’s beneath his attention.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/05/2019 18:22

Not looking good for the Times at the moment.

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/05/2019 18:21

Twitter threads about case:

twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/1129317891512381446?s=09

twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/1129367654010114048?s=09

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 15/05/2019 17:37

However, as we already know, this is not about transsexuals, who have been around for a long time. The reason for the increase in coverage about 'transgender' stuff, is that..well there has been a huge explosion in the amount of people claiming a 'trans identity'. Just ask the Tavistock..

Its the realisation of the consequences on policies & legislation of lobbying behind the scenes which has been going on for a long time by some transactivists including some transsexuals.

The #ManFriday action, formation of Women's groups such as WPUK, Fairplay for Women etc last year were significant in ending what had been for a long time contained as 'no debate'

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 15/05/2019 17:29

Indeed, many of the articles in question proceed as though trans people have only suddenly surfaced as a subject for moral panic in the last 3-4 years, disregarding generations of low key and episodic reporting before."

However, as we already know, this is not about transsexuals, who have been around for a long time. The reason for the increase in coverage about 'transgender' stuff, is that..well there has been a huge explosion in the amount of people claiming a 'trans identity'. Just ask the Tavistock..

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 15/05/2019 17:26

the basis for many stories was later established to be false. Times been doing stories about suicide stats by any chance? Those are the worst false narrative ones IMO, making out loads of young children are killing themselves, despite knowing that stories with these inflated stats, have the potential to actually increase ideation.

False interpretation of statistics about trans prisoners and offending.

Ah those are the worst aren't they, when some people make up entire articles about how feminists have it wrong about the amount of males in prison for sex attacks. And then it has to be retracted because basically, MOJ figures match up (and it turns out, the numbers were not high enough, in actuality) and the piece was nothing but a smear. Sure this is not what Burns had in mind though. But yeah, its ridiculous when that happens eh?!

Outanabout · 15/05/2019 12:39

Could Irish employees take a newspaper to tribunal if it did a series of investigations about Irish terrorists, or a Muslim employee object to articles about grooming gangs in Rotherham? Where does it end?

FreeFreesia · 15/05/2019 12:33

.

R0wantrees · 15/05/2019 12:11

Re prominant TRA campaigners focus on The Times/Sunday Times:

April 2019 Tara Hewitt senior NHS advisor, recently promoted to band 8A [44 - 51k] , founder of TELI (with Jess Bradley & Michelle Hudson) response to the reporting of serious whistleblown Duty of Care concerns by medical professionals from NHS Tavistock childrens clinic:

Tara Hewitt (Twitter) "Yet today The Times has FOUR transphpbic articles targeting trans children. This is sick cruel abuse"

"Its horrific but also similar to the scare mongering targeting migrant communities and islamophobia. Some in the media simply seek out marginalised groups to hang their click bait approaches using hate as a marketing tool."

When asked, "Is there any action we can take to put pressure on the media to stop this bullshit witch hunt?"

Tara Hewitt replied, "Other than the usual, write to the editor, your MP, @ IpsoNews ask other people to do the same. Etc"

twitter.com/Tara_Hewitt/status/1115129452684558336

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3385533-Prominant-campaigning-role-of-Tara-Hewitt-NHS-TELI-Social-work-universities-etc?watched=1&msgid=87076372#prettyPhoto

context:
House of Lords meeting today with panel of medical professionals outlining some of the serious failures of Duty of Care towards children & vulnerable adults impacted by trans rights' activism/lobbying.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3586228-Important-Standing-For-Women-House-of-Lords-Meeting-today-First-Do-No-Harm-The-ethics-of-transgender-healthcare-hosted-Lord-Moonie-focus-on-the-Duty-of-Care

thread discussing the Times articles which Hewitt considers 'sick abuse' .
This illustratesTara Hewitt's failure to understand or respect Safeguarding frameworks intended to protect children & vulnerable adults including the importance of taking seriously whistleblowing in NHS:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3553935-Times-article-calls-to-end-transgender-experiment-on-children

theOtherPamAyres · 14/05/2019 23:23

The so-called statement spends too time on Christine Burns and very little on the perceived vendetta by the Times. Greer, Bindel and Burchill are given a significant proportion of space, without any explanation as to why those three commentators have anything to do with the hearing. Burns reminds us that the purpose of the statement is to 'contextualise'.

There isn't a single supporting reference, link to evidence or example of bad faith reporting. There is, however, a great deal of padding and a high word count. It is biased and amateurish and not the sort of statement you would expect from a witness purporting to be an expert on the impact of press reporting on trans lives.

RobinMoiraWhite · 14/05/2019 22:38

Thanks for the style advice...

R0wantrees · 14/05/2019 20:31

DuMondeB
Yes thank you.
I conflated the the issues with Owl-Fairplay for Women & the unfounded IPSO complaint against the Times.

MoleSmokes · 14/05/2019 20:27

Thanks everyone for the commentary, clarifications, links and flowers!

Christine's "Introduction" and "Press Coverage - The Long View" are interesting reading but I thought I would cut to the chase with the précis.

I still do not know what Christine means by the very last last sentence - I cannot work out any way of re-writing it that makes sense!

R0wantrees · 14/05/2019 13:55

Was it Whittle that crowed that they had managed to sneak the GRA in under the radar?

Christine Burns definitely made comment about 'under the radar'

On a MN FWR thread last year critcising his irresponsible use of suicide, Stephen Whittle said with some confidence ( boast / brag / /swagger/ gloat/ crow?) that the TRA community have Labour in the bag:

"In the end we will pull ourselves together and continue the campaigning – as we have always done. We know we have Labour behind this one, so will simply do our best to get them elected. As I tell the community “we have always lost more battles than we have won, but we only ever need to win the big one”.

I hope that clarifies matters."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398127-Stephen-Whittle-influential-TRA-asserts-We-know-we-have-Labour-behind-this-one-so-will-simply-do-our-best-to-get-them-elected-Corbyn-seems-to-confirm-this-at-Pink-News

OrchidInTheSun · 14/05/2019 13:06

Was it Whittle that crowed that they had managed to sneak the GRA in under the radar?

Less keen on the sunlight it seems

R0wantrees · 14/05/2019 12:36

para 11 - The Times has a "vendetta" against trans people!
I cannot work out what Christine means by the final sentence of her witness statement - I cannot parse it at all.

That such beliefs might become accepted and widely held was demonstrated in the recent LBC interview with Andrew Gillingham & Benjamin Butterworth.
Butterworth is a journalist with some influence & weekend editor for the Independent.
In what should have been a discussion about serious Safeguarding concerns about the transitioning of very young children within their fostered family, Butterworth sought to make wider claims/allegations about 'anti trans' ('vendetta'?) media eg The Times.

Confirmation bias is a powerful thing.
Propaganda is a powerful tool.

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3584443-lbc-debate-on-s-times-foster-children-article

DuMondeB · 14/05/2019 11:00

R0 - do you mean this Owl thing?

One supporter of sex self-ID and non-binary trans campaigner, Owl Fisher, wrote a defamatory newspaper article, full of inaccuracies, in the Independent newspaper, accusing me of ‘guesswork and fearmongering’. Worryingly, the Independent is one of the few national newspapers that has not signed up the Independent Press Standard Organisation (IPSO) so this damaging and unreliable attempt to debunk my study remains on-line. We have now instructed lawyers to have the article removed.

(This was settled out of court, the Independent paid FPFW an undisclosed sum and the article had a correction added to it)

The Sunday Times article reporting our study findings was also attacked and found itself under investigation after a complaint made to the Press Ombudsman. The complaint has been fully rejected by IPSO who recognised the importance of our research “This was a matter of significant public interest, particularly in the absence of official figures on the issue”

fairplayforwomen.com/prison-data-confirmed/

The IPSO complaint on the trans prisoner story was another one filed by O’Connell:

www.ipso.co.uk/rulings-and-resolution-statements/ruling/?id=20177-17

theOtherPamAyres · 14/05/2019 10:47

@Mole

Thank you for the swift precis. Flowers

Burns makes some sweeping statements like "this was found to be false" and "this was due to increasing visibility of trans people".

Those are opinions, unless there is supporting evidence. Burns can expect to be cross-examined and made to substantiate the claims. Journalists, on the other hand, tend to do their homework in preparation for publication of news stories and opinion articles.

The fact is that some journalists were uncovering a huge story of regulatory and policy capture. In doing so, they found that politicians were too scared to involve themselves and were prepared to put women and children's rights and welfare at risk rather than examine the rise of transgenderism. In doing so, they faced threats and the likes of Burns who misrepresents what they were doing and why.

If it weren't for the free press, self i/d would continue its stealth-like, slow creep.

R0wantrees · 14/05/2019 10:45

that includes more specific evidence pertaining to any changes in the approach of the Times and Sunday Times in recent years and whether that might be related to changes at a higher level in the organisation. The tribunal is not in itself an ‘investigation’ of the newspaper’s output; however, changes in that output, and the internal decisions creating any such output, do have bearing on questions about the climate within the organisation, as might be experienced by an employee who feels affected by the subject matter. This would be true regardless of the subject in question. In this case the context is the reporting of trans lives.

The specific deliberate attempts by prominant TRAs to attempt to silence the Times/Sunday Times has been ongoing for some time.
For example:

This was evident in the Home Affairs Hate Crime enquiry & Stephen Doughty MPs particular focus on Janice Turner:

James Kirkup:
(extract)
Surely a bright, thoughtful chap like him didn’t mean to imply that it was his job as Member of Parliament to tell newspapers what they can and cannot write? Surely he had no intention of acting as if it is in any way appropriate for a politician to decide what is and is not acceptable for journalists to say, and how they say it? And I can only hope that it was by a simple accident that he singled out by name a female journalist and suggested that her employers stop her saying the things that she thinks – because Doughty happens not to like her saying those things?

As I say, I must assume that he meant none of these things, that he had no such moronic and bullying intent when he spoke and acted as he did. I assume that Doughty is an honourable politician determined to do his job in a democracy and ensure that matters of public policy are debated fully and honestly, whether or not some people find such debate offensive. Because, as I am sure Doughty knows, there is no right not be offended and if we ever let hurt feelings stop us discussing matters of public interest on the basis of the facts, everyone loses." (continues)
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

Helen Belcher (Trans Media Watch) attack on Janice Turner & failed IPSO complaint against the Times:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3393577-Janice-Turner-accused-of-causing-trans-suicides

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3569148-Vindication-for-Janice-Turner-IPSO-complaint-result

Zoe O'Connell failed IPSO complaint against Andrew Gillingham:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3263172-Andrew-Gilligan-Latest-bullying-transgender-complaint-swiftly-rejected-by-parliamentary-standards-committee

(I also think there's a failed allegation by Owl against The Times/Gilligan but don't have link to it. To do with prison statistics?)

Edward Lord letter to Rebekka Brooks seeking censoring of Andrew Gilligan:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3459026-Edward-Lord-asking-the-Sunday-Times-to-censor-Andrew-Gilligan

I have a memory of Jane Fae talking on the BBC Sunday discussion program about building some sort of tool to use against what Fae regards as 'anti trans' newspaper.