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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rod Liddle thinks Susie Green should be jailed

219 replies

ClingFilmApplications · 24/03/2019 03:46

In today's Sunday Times, Rod Liddle states of Susie Green:
"My own view is that she should be in prison for child abuse and assault."

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/this-is-beyond-satire-woke-britain-look-out-or-youll-render-me-obsolete-6xff2xvb2

(don't know how to do share tokens, sorry)

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 20:29

“Off topic, but when googling, I discovered there is a whole industry involving law firms training HR people about transgender rights. I wonder how much conforms with the Equalities Act, and how much is pushing boundaries.”

There's lots of information on the Jess Bradley threads (all of them)

see also:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374926-What-influence-does-TELI-have-on-government-public-services-and-charities-policies-Co-founders-include-Jess-Bradley-Tara-Hewitt-and-Michelle-Hudson

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325882-WEP-conference-questions-for-panel-of-trans-rights-advocating-barristers

heresyisthenewblack · 24/03/2019 20:29

From Needmoresleep's link, it looks like that's might be the same public lecture, only with a different title:

Transgender Youth: Medical and Mental health Needs

On 4 April 2019, Professor Johanna Olson-Kennedy, a global leader in the field of transgender healthcare and the Benjamin Meaker Visiting Professor, will deliver a public lecture in the Lady Hale Moot Court, 8-10 Berkeley Sq, University of Bristol Law School. The lecture will explore key elements of providing comprehensive care for transgender youth, including gender development, recognising signs and symptoms of gender dysphoria, mental health challenges commonly faced by transgender youth, and the use of medications to facilitate gender transitions. The lecture will be compelling listening for all individuals interested in issues relating to transgender children – including clinicians, civil society, educators, policy-makers and parents.

eurochick · 24/03/2019 20:28

Needmoresleep I took issue with new guidelines intended to be issued by my law firm that mixed up sex and gender. HR now seems to be sitting on them.

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 20:27

Plus Dr Peter Dunne, who seems to be organising this event

Dr Peter Dunne has played a key role both in Uk & Ireland.

See TELI, TENI & the Government Trans Inquiry when (from memory) he was an 'independent international advisor'

heresyisthenewblack · 24/03/2019 20:25

Plus Dr Peter Dunne, who seems to be organising this event.

Sorry if this is already upthread, but Peter Dunne is Co-Convener for Health at TELI. He is also hosting Dr Johanna Olson-Kennedy at Bristol, which will include the public lecture Transgender Children and Medicine: Pathways to Affirmation on the 4th April.

www.bristol.ac.uk/ias/fellowships/meakers/johanna-olson-kennedy/

Needmoresleep · 24/03/2019 20:24

Am off to look. In the meantime I have found this

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/public-lecture-transgender-youth-medical-and-mental-health-needs-tickets-58083057990

Bristol+transgender in a search seems to yield all sorts of curiousities

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/03/2019 20:21

Any Links?

“Off topic, but when googling, I discovered there is a whole industry involving law firms training HR people about transgender rights. I wonder how much conforms with the Equalities Act, and how much is pushing boundaries.”
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RedToothBrush · 24/03/2019 20:21

Why is an amateur charity with no experience or expertise in safeguarding, saying there are no safeguarding issues, giving advice to professional organisations responsible for safeguarding and who should be taking the lead on safeguarding?

Talk about arse about face.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 24/03/2019 20:20

Susie green aknowledges that the treatment pathways she promotes cause infertility, but say that "it's not a big deal and has no impact on mental health."

Not a big deal for children to grow up with pre-pubertal genitals and then need surgery. But it would apparently be a major deal for the 80% of transgender adults who decide to retain their penises.

Hearwegoagain · 24/03/2019 20:17

I think, from reading the submissions to the Maria Miller ‘consultation’, that when some people use ‘informed consent’ in this debate they do not use it as it is used elsewhere. I would use ‘informed consent’ to mean me agreeing that a doctor can operate on me and that I understand the risks. The initial suggestion of the operation comes from the doctor, not me.

But I have seen some people in the quest for hormone treatment to use it as meaning ‘I want it, I understand what it does, you should give it to me without question’.

Will try to find the quote later.

Needmoresleep · 24/03/2019 20:15

Wow Bristol Law faculty are woke.

In December we had Prof Joanne Conaghan’s dense word salad

legalresearch.blogs.bris.ac.uk/2018/12/sex-gender-and-the-trans-debate/

Expertly critiqued here mobile.twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1075783838217973760

Plus Dr Peter Dunne, who seems to be organising this event.

Off topic, but when googling, I discovered there is a whole industry involving law firms training HR people about transgender rights. I wonder how much conforms with the Equalities Act, and how much is pushing boundaries.

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 20:12

Re suicides
Its important not to attribute causation to individual cases.

The way that suicides should be discussed is covered by Samaritan's guidance because of the risk of contagion especially in children and vulnerale adults.

There is a need for nuance and care in any discussion.

Many people especiallyTransgender Trend, Littman etc have been highlighting the patterns of ROGD. Dr Polly Carmichael acknowledged last year that social media etc may play a role.

The government indicated last summer that there would be an inquiry into the escalating numbers of children and young people seeking treatment.

There is absolutely a need for this to be prioritised.

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 19:57

Organisations like Mermaids can squirm and argue tmits transphobic all they bloody like.

Questions that should be asked and are asked for other similar issues are not asked if the child says they are trans.

Its a blackhole of safeguarding.

Mermaids Chrity yes, also every professional & political body which has uncritically enabled their influence.

Mermaids Charity does not have professionals experienced & qualified in health care, child psychology, mental health, social care, safeguarding or education.

Its quite extraordinary when the vulnerability of the children they are supporting is acknowledged by everyone not to have key personel on the board of trustees or employed staff.

Needmoresleep · 24/03/2019 19:53

When the story is finally told, it will be interesting to learn about the pressure a few brave organisations resisted, when others caved.

MN, The Times, The Spectator (James Kirkup has acknowledged the support he has had from the editor) The Mail.

Where are the NSPCC, the BBC and so many others.

Where did the pressure come from, why, and why has it been so effective?

RedToothBrush · 24/03/2019 19:45

Needmoresleep that article about Janice Turner reminds me of a tweet (one of many) today from Joani Walsh

Joani Walsh @ joaniwalshi
More than one person from reality TV has now died by suicide in two weeks. Ditto Parkland. We know suicide can be contagious. And yet there is one issue in which noone wants to accept there may also be contagion? #ROGD

There is a systematic breakdown of safeguarding occurring with regard to trans identifying children.

Organisations like Mermaids can squirm and argue tmits transphobic all they bloody like.

Questions that should be asked and are asked for other similar issues are not asked if the child says they are trans.

Its a blackhole of safeguarding.

Why?

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 19:45

Note Session 1: "10:30 – 11:35 Session 1: Children’s Access to Medical Transition Pathways through a Model of Informed Consent?"

On hopes that Professor Carl Heneghan, (Evidence Based Medicine Oxford) is aware.

Professor Carl Heneghan was interviewed on Panorama (linked below) & as a consequence of his analysis concluded that 'informed consent is not possible'

BMJ EBM Spotlight paper:
'Gender-affirming hormone in children and adolescents – Evidence review'
Posted on 25th February 2019

(extract)
"Gender dysphoria occurs when a person experiences discomfort or distress because of a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. Gender dysphoria can arise in childhood and adolescent which raises many questions about how best to handle the condition. This post sets out the current evidence for gender-affirming hormones in adolescents and children to aid decision making. (continues)

"Conclusions

There are significant problems with how the evidence for Gender-affirming cross-sex hormone has been collected and analysed that prevents definitive conclusions to be drawn. Similar to puberty blockers, the evidence is limited by small sample sizes; retrospective methods, loss of considerable numbers of patients in follow-up. The majority of studies also lack a control group (only two studies used controls). Interventions have heterogeneous treatment regimes complicating comparisons between studies. Also adherence to the interventions are either not reported or at best inconsistent. Subjective outcomes, which are highly prevalent in the studies, are also prone to bias due to lack of blinding, and many effects can be explained by regression to the mean.

The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research. Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms, including death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice."
blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

BBC 'Trans Kids: Why Medicine Matters'
More young people than ever are exploring their gender identity. Last year, two and a half thousand under-eighteens were referred to NHS England's gender identity clinics for support. Some are hoping to get access to potentially irreversible treatments as soon as they can. Doctors are divided about the best way to help.

Dr Faye Kirkland investigates how much we understand about the care being offered to transgender children."
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002tw1

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 19:42

Acknowledging of course that it was a dramatisation.
In Butterfly there was a scene when the US Dr (cf Spack) asked the mother (cf Green) for a consent for treatment form from the child's UK doctors in order to start prescribing medication etc
(Im going from memory)
The mother (this was a dramatisation) did not have one and it was fudged slightly.
Im not sure if its still available to watch but given how closely Susie Green & Mermaids charity were involved, it may at least offer appropriate questions as to Dr Spack's due dilligence in treating a child from the UK. One presumes he would of course be very aware of NHS guidelines at the time.

hackmum · 24/03/2019 19:41

It's worth noting that this Mermaids/TELI conference is coming up on 29 March at the University of Bristol:

www.bristol.ac.uk/law/events/2019/rethinking-trans-healthcare-conference.html

Note Session 1: "10:30 – 11:35 Session 1: Children’s Access to Medical Transition Pathways through a Model of Informed Consent?"

I think we all know what that's about.

Needmoresleep · 24/03/2019 19:38

Sorry my typos are more in evidence than usual:

Janice Turners journalism award

www.pressgazette.co.uk/times-withdraws-from-comment-awards-event-over-treatment-of-columnists-janice-turner-melanie-phillips/

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 19:36

Why was no court ever involved in a case of a child being taken abroad for medical treatment not available and deemed unethical in this country between the ages of 12 and 16?

Lots of people must have known. No one ever thought to have it properly assessed? Surely that leaves quite a few people exposed to rather a lot of questions?

Its surprising that questions aren't asked of Tavistock.
With regards Safeguarding a child, the clinic and medics there seem to have shrugged what in any other area of medicine would have required Safeguarding action.

RedToothBrush · 24/03/2019 19:33

You could phrase this as the exploitation of desparate parents by foreign and domestic quacks out for a big payday, quite easily.

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 19:33

I think the Times will have had more pushback that we know about. The Ted Lord letter and the problems with Janice Turners journalism are probably only the tip of the iceberg.

As Edward Lord wrote to Rebeka Brooks on City of London notepaper one might conclude he felt confident of support to do so:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3459026-Edward-Lord-asking-the-Sunday-Times-to-censor-Andrew-Gilligan

Hawayman · 24/03/2019 19:31

Whilst I don't agree with the political view of The Times, I can't say that the editors are stupid. Any reasonable person can see the problem with the transing children. The culture of silence around it is spookily similar to the Jimmy Saville situation.

RedToothBrush · 24/03/2019 19:30

Why was no court ever involved in a case of a child being taken abroad for medical treatment not available and deemed unethical in this country between the ages of 12 and 16?

Lots of people must have known. No one ever thought to have it properly assessed? Surely that leaves quite a few people exposed to rather a lot of questions?

Did a systematic failure occur? And if it did, is that likely to happen again?

Questions, questions.

I'd love to know the answer to them.

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 19:27

And more specifically ask questions about why, no one was raising questions with child protection services over a 12 year old boy going abroad without courts being involved and a proper discussion going on about what was in the best interests of that child by social services.

It does not ban parents taking their children oversea for medical procedures etc, but it would oblige better scrutiny of such actions. And it goes past the trans argument.

YY Red

It asks specific questions of Tavistock GIDS if they decide for ethical/protocol reasons not to offer a course of treatment to a child where is the continuing care for a child when parents/carers seem intent on obtaining medication/surgery either at private clinincs or abroad?
There have already been serious concerns raised about the lack of follow ups when treatment is offered but what when treatment has been refused (for specific duty of care reasons) and there are legitimate concerns that parents will continue to seek treatments for their child?

I've just posted this on a current thread but seems relevent here:

This documentary about Jackie Green's quest to win a beauty pageant (aged 18) is really worth watching:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkWv9cbda4c

In the documentary above it is important to be aware of the role that Dr Spack played in influencing and impacting both Susie & Jackie Green.

He has talked about how he deliberately prescribed cross sex hormone so that Jackie would not reach her natural height.

He is seen talking with Jackie Green and thanking her as she has helped his work. Susie Green also talks about how Dr Spack absolutely affirmed her child's belief at a very difficult time for the family & how important this relationship was.

His influence on the family as well as Mermaids charity is considerable and seems yet to gain much attention

From Daily Mail 2016:
'The woman who used to be a boy is now at the heart of a controversy over children as young as nine given drugs to change sex'
(extract)
"Scientific research on the impact of the hormone treatments on a young body is sparse. Some parents nevertheless ignore the NHS age rules and buy the hormones online or take their child to private clinics in the UK, the U.S., Holland or Germany.

Helen Webberley, a GP in Wales, has set up a gender clinic where a ‘handful’ of children have been put on cross-sex hormones, including a 12-year-old boy who was born a girl. According to Dr Webberley, this child had been on ‘blockers’ since the age of nine and did not want to wait until 16 to bring on his male puberty.

"The evangelist-in-chief for early medical intervention is 73-year-old Dr Norman Spack, a paediatric endocrinologist at the Boston Children’s Hospital in America. He is also the guiding light of Mermaids and a friend of both Susie Green and Dr Webberley.

He wants children who identify as transgender to routinely be given hormone-blocking drugs around the onset of puberty, and then move to high doses of hormones to change their sex, after which they can consider surgery.

The Spack philosophy is that age limits are arbitrary and often cruel. ‘Why wait?’ is his mantra. He says he has put ‘about 200 children’ onto hormone blockers, and claims 100 per cent have gone on to take cross-sex hormones because ‘no one changes their mind’

But other medics, such as Dr James Barrett, a consultant psychiatrist at London’s Charing Cross gender identity clinic, warns of the dangers of starting irreversible treatment too early."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3973036/Jackie-Green-heart-controversy-children-young-nine-given-drugs-change-sex.html

There is a clip somewhere (not sure if it was the TedTalk?)of Susie Green in conversation with Dr Spack where he happily talks of deliberately restricting Jackie Green's height because she would have been 'too tall' for a woman.

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