5 Transgender Women Who Have Fought Their Prisons From Behind Bars

You're not imagining the sexual tone to it, Princess. While there are some genuinely dysphoric transsexuals a lot of the time it's about sexual stimulation and fetish. Fetishising what they believe to be "womanhood". Finding the experience of presenting as a "woman" and their own appearance a massive turn on. Sometimes it's about being a dominant version of a woman amongst biological women and enjoying their discomfort with that. It's messed up.

I can see you're still feeling nauseous about the toilet attacks so I won't mention the menstruation fetishists to you just yet, but they're a real thing too. (Sorry!)

PrincessPlummy It is really worth reading this thread, it may take a little while but is well-referenced. The majority of people are still unaware of what has and is happening:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

RE Scotland & influence of transactivists on policies this also extends to schools as well as prisons so all children are affected:

This is an important piece of analysis:

'Children’s Rights Impact Assessment'
(extract)

Foreword
Women and Girls in Scotland is a grassroots, feminist, women’s campaign group set up to protect the sex-based rights of women and girls. Current UK equality legislation recognises that women and girls need legal protections on the basis of sex.
However, these protections are in danger of being undermined by current policies and proposed legislative changes. As such, we are undertaking a process of reviewing policies and proposals in order to identify where the needs of women and girls are not being met or where their rights are not being upheld.
We identified the document Supporting Transgender Young People: Guidance for Schools in Scotland as one such proposal that merited review. We have assessed this proposal using a children’s rights-based approach, with an impact assessment model developed by the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland. This
model was developed to offer policy and decision makers a tool to help them “fulfil their responsibilities to respect the rights of children and young people set out in national and international law”.1
We are currently waiting for a formal response from the CYPCS in relation to our Children’s Rights Impact Assessment. This version has been submitted to the CYPCS; we have removed the few sections where we did not make a submission.
We may update this Children’s Rights Impact Assessment once we have heard back from the CYPCS, at which time we will also issue our assessment as a report that we will then move to share with schools, local authorities and other stakeholders." (continues)

Among the councils which have endorsed the guidance produced by LGBT Youth and the Scottish Trans Alliance, Glasgow, West Lothian, Clackmannanshire and South Lanarkshire said they were unable to publish an assessment of the likely impact on other pupils as they had not carried one out. Edinburgh City Council failed to respond. The office of the Scottish Children's Commissioner, Education Scotland and the Scottish Government have all also backed the LGBT Youth guide.

Scotland's Children's commissioner said: "We did not undertake and therefore do not hold" any research looking at how other pupils might be affected by the guidance.

wgscotland.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Childrens-Rights-Impact-Assessment-by-Women-and-Girls-in-Scotland.pdf

cf Herald in Scotland article 25th June 2018
"Schools 'forget' girls in rush to adopt pro-trans guidance campaigners claim as Christian group threatens legal action"
(extract)
THE rights of Scottish schoolgirls are being undermined by rules allowing pupils to adopt a different gender and share changing rooms, it has been claimed, as it emerged schools are unprepared for the controversial overhaul.

A series of Freedom of Information (FoI) requests have revealed that councils have widely backed guidelines produced by organisations campaigning for the rights of transgender people but have not considered how the new approach will affect children – particularly girls.

The new guidelines tell teachers that if a transgender pupil wishes to share a changing room with "other young people who share their gender identity," they should be allowed to do so.

"There is no reason for parents or carers of the other pupils to be informed," it adds.

The guidelines say young people should be able to compete in the sports events for the gender they identify with, and says if other pupils are uncomfortable using changing rooms or toilets with transgender pupils, they should use other facilities or wait until the transgender pupil is done.

However none of the councils involved, nor the children’s commissioner, nor Education Scotland have carried out an equality impact assessment to ensure the rights and wellbeing of other pupils are unaffected. This means the impact on other students has not been taken into account." (continues)

James Morton, manager of the Scottish Trans Alliance, said EQIAs had generally not been carried out because the document distributed by councils was guidance, not an official policy.

"If it became an official policy position they should do an EQIA and I'm sure it would show that there isn't any negative impact on other pupils," he said. (continues)
www.heraldscotland.com/news/16311379.schools-forget-girls-in-rush-to-adopt-pro-trans-guidance-campaigners-claim-as-christian-group-threatens-legal-action/

That story has honestly made me feel sick - this is why I'm thinking that maybe we should start asking for GRCs.

It is worth being aware of the creation of GRA in 2004. Many of the Safeguarding and Women's Rights issues now were identified by some MPs

Important work by Vulvamort @ HairyLeggdHarpy:

" The Gender Recognition Bill

I'm going to tweet out a few of the illuminating comments from the debates that led to the GRA 2004, to save you all ploughing through Hansard.
One of the primary motivations (if not the foremost) for the bill was to avoid legalising same sex marriage. This featured VERY heavily in the discussions.

It was, in the Govt's eyes, FAR preferable to convert a same sex couple into a heterosexual couple via 'sex change' than it was to make same sex marriage legal:

And the justification of "if we allow sex to change we can sidestep same sex marriage" appeared over and over again... "

One of the obvious flaws in the entire process was the deliberate confuscation of sex and gender. The govt admitted that the two concepts were NOT THE SAME
Note the NO.
And then note the utter balderdash that follows. In this order:

1. Gender is not sex.
2. Govt will legally recognise gender
3. Gender should be legal sex
4. Acquired gender = legal sex
5. Something unexplained about man, woman and male and female
6. Sex = Gender

But penny what can we do? If for example that father had seen that person enter the women's toilets where his daughter what could he have done?

Many women, some men and also transsexuals have been raising this for some time.
Transsexuals including Miranda Yardley, Fionne Orlander & Seven Hex who are male have stopped using female singe sex spaces.

See Fairplay For Women for ideas of what to do, evidence and research.

fairplayforwomen.com/

This is appalling. I don't want to harm genuine transsexuals in any way, but the thought of something happen again like with those girls in that toilet makes me feel sick with worry.

It's such a tricky situation I don't know what to think. I'm not sure I follow what's going on in Scotland? I don't think any male criminal should ever be in women's prisons even if they've had surgery

Predatory males (including some convicted of violece and/or sexual assaults against women and children) are housed within female estate throughout the UK.

Last year as a consequence vulnerable female prisoners were sexually assaulted by Karen White in an English prison.

The speaker of the commons prevented MPs concerned for women's safety, dignity & privacy (in some prisons women have to share showers etc) from asking questions.

See James Kirkup Spectator September 2018:
'If MPs can’t debate a rapist in a woman’s jail, politics has failed'
(extract)
Last week, it was confirmed that the State put a rapist and paedophile in a women’s prison. That rapist, who uses the name Karen White, then sexually assaulted four women in that prison.

This is, of course, an outrage, a failure of public administration of the first order. Many people are angry, among them members of the Government that oversaw this failure. Many people have questions about how that failure came about. How did the Prison Service come to decide that Karen White, a person with a male body and a history of violent sexual crimes, should be put in New Hall prison? (New Hall, incidentally, also has a ‘mother and baby unit.’ The State did not just put a rapist in a women’s jail, they put a convicted paedophile in prison with children).

Was this just a catastrophic failure of judgement? Was it the result of flawed policy on the handling of transgender inmates? Did a climate of unthinking acquiescence to the demands of a highly effective transgender rights lobby contribute to this horrible mistake?

These are all legitimate questions, questions that should be debated and answered by the ministers responsible. These are the questions that Parliament exists to debate: questions about the conduct of public policy.

As I and others have noted repeatedly, a lot of politicians privately ask such questions about transgender issues, but many keep quiet about it – for fear of being labelled ‘transphobic’ or worse. I know serving ministers who have real doubts about some of these things, but dare not speak publicly." (continues)
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/the-state-has-failed-karen-whites-victims/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3365319-new-kirkup-article-about-bercow-s-refusal-to-let-mps-discuss-karen-white

It isn't tricky if the priority and starting point is Safeguarding children and vulnerable adults.
Female spaces were and should be single sex for safety, dignity and privacy of girls and women.

It's very simple. Theres no need for any angst or handwringing.
Womens spaces and services are for women, because they meet a need that women have. No one else is being discriminated against because women only spaces and services exist.
If other groups of people need specific spaces or services, they can campaign and fundraise, like women did.

That story has honestly made me feel sick - this is why I'm thinking that maybe we should start asking for GRCs.

Spaces that are single sex for females need to be simply just that.
Human beings can't change sex.

Rowan oh my god that story is vile. Why on earth were they allowed in the ladies in the first place? And then a women's hostel?

Policies and legislation have been written to affirm a person's 'gender identity' over sex.
This has been going on for many years.
In Scotland policies are slightly further ahead than therest of the UK. THese policies have not included impact studies with regards girls and women.
The Scottish Prison policies are fully affirming of gender self-id rather than sex as a consequence predatory males are being held in female estate alongside vulnerable female prisoners.

In Scotland last year both woman & female was redefined in an act to include males intending to identify as women.
fairplayforwomen.com/scottish_stole_woman/

This is why sex matters. Women and girls need single sex spaces for safety, dignity and privacy.

Princess you're right, probably because she was dressing in a way that is off limits to women going about their daily lives. I feel this way about Pips Bunce - the clothes worn when dressed as "Pips" would have had any woman in the Credit Suisse office sent home to get changed into something more appropriate. And yet when a man does it, it's brave and stunning.

I read once on the trans widows thread a woman saying her husband was dressing like the kind of woman he himself was attracted to, so young, sexy, etc. And he wanted himself to be perceived as young and sexy so was wearing a miniskirt, heels, strappy lacy tops and posting photos online for validation comments like "omg so sexy".

Now that I think about it, both of these family friends have quite, shall we say, old fashioned to regressive ideas of what being a woman is and how women should behave in the world. I think they're buying into the same gender stereotypes that I so firmly reject.

What has been most eye-opening for me is the regressive sexist and likely homophobic attitudes of the 'prominant' Drs who have 'led the way'.

The early interviews illustrate this more clearly eg the requirement that males present in very stereotypical clothing (I read one TS who described being required by the Dr to wear a skirt as proof of their commitment), the idea that creating a surgical orifice is the 'ultimate' commitment to being 'a woman' is a particularly male perspective about sex.

I think my experience at the theatre is what's really brought this into sharp reality for me. I know it's irrational but I feel scared at the thought of sharing the loos with someone who is/looks male and has penis, especially as many toilets have large gaps under the cubicle! I remember not going to the loo all day at primary school and when my mum would ask I'd say it's because I was scared because the boys were coming into the girls toilets and trying to look under the gaps

Its not irrational, voyeurism and sexual harrrassment, assault does happen. Its a male-pattern crime predominantly committed by males against women and children.

This is evidence-based.

Last year in Scotland two young girls (10 & 12 years old) were sexually assaulted by a 17 year old male whose identity as a transwoman had been affirmed. The assaults, including filming under the cubicles happened in the women's toilets in supermarkets. In one case, the girl's Dad was waiting for her outside having understandably assumed that it was a single-sex female space.

transcrimeuk.com/2019/02/02/katie-dolatowski/

Rowan I hadn't seen that thread. Eyes well and truly opened.

I'm going to have to sit with this for a while. These two transwomen are friends of my parents, I have always just unthinkingly accepted that because they are post-op they should be accepted in ladies loos. Live and let live kind of thing. But now, I think I've changed my mind on that. It is men that need to "be nice" and accept other men that don't conform in their spaces without violence or aggression.

Now that I think about it, both of these family friends have quite, shall we say, old fashioned to regressive ideas of what being a woman is and how women should behave in the world. I think they're buying into the same gender stereotypes that I so firmly reject.

But Datun I don't think anyone can tell she's male? She's 5'6 and looks really feminine - she had the surgery when she 22 and had been on hormones for a couple of years before that.

The thing is, Princess, this isn't, and never has been, about individuals.

We do not make laws based on the people who won't break them. We don't make rape laws based on men who won't rape.

You can have personal empathy for your friend (and why wouldn't you), whilst understanding that as a group, men are harmful to women, including those who identify as women.

It might be an uncomfortable position to occupy, but it's rational. We have to have customs and protocols based on group analysis, not individual analysis. Which is why you then go on to say this:

I think my experience at the theatre is what's really brought this into sharp reality for me. I know it's irrational but I feel scared at the thought of sharing the loos with someone who is/looks male

This is entirely rational, of course. Your experience of men is the same as anyone else's.

You may not know the statistics, but you know the experience.

Women are routinely catcalled, steet harassed, sexually harassed, assaulted, groped, leched at, raped and murdered. The #MeToo campaign ran to 11,000,000 posts in under 24 hours.

And it's not by other women.

Men commit 98% of all sex crime and 90% of violent crime.

It doesn't mean that we think all men are predatory. It does mean that when we are in a vulnerable position (in prison, half naked, in hospital), we want to eliminate as much anxiety and risk as possible. It's instinctive. And statistically evidenced.

You're displaying empathy for a friend. You can do that, whilst maintaining the position that certain spaces should be segregated by sex, and that includes your friend.

Xiaoxiong I recognised what you were saying and with regards the way that some TRAs treat some TS I agree with how appalling this is.

There isn't the clear separation between TS and TRAs though that many would seek to make.

The prominant TRAs who have lobbied and pushed through legislation which has denied women their rights are often TS (including post-op).

Alongside trans rights activists predominately male Drs and politicians gave 'permission' for some males to access female single sex spaces, services, sports etc. They are often described as 'gatekeepers' to the medical treatments that some people want (which within any other branch of medicine would be seen as appropriate duty of care) but they also acted as gatekeepers to female spaces and impacted women's rights & Safeguarding.

There is an important thread which illustrates the evolution of trans-rights activism.

AngryAttackKittens wrote of it:
I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007?pg=4

what's needed then? For the TRAs to be treated as anyone else with a dysphoria, as a person in need ot support, relevant treatment. Not as some new type of human being whose needs and wants transcend all others.

I knw... realistically? For the EA 2010 t be upheld as it is actually written and for female spaces to be treated as singel sex spaces. Sex not gender!

Then the GRA needs to be reformed, the 'legal fiction' to be clarified. Things like recording transwomen's crimes as those of females and any other stats that would skew provision of health facilities to be clarified and then stuck to.

For the woke dudes and dudettes to be told that trans is trans, it is a gender and gender is not sex. That is how the thinsg called nature, scicne, works. All else is social nores. Stop confusing those concepts or yourt whol life will be unhappy, unfuliflled.

MOST OF ALL we need to work again on destroying gender stereotypes. They are self evidently toxic!

I know passing shouldn't be important but for me on an instinctive level it is, and I can't say why exactly

It's about perception, isn't it? Partly.

And about the fact that if they've gone to that sort of effort to disguise themselves, perhaps they are preoccupied with keeping quiet and not making a fuss. Which would indicate a lack of predatory intent.

Except many transsexuals, who pass, display sense of entitlement to which they are utterly oblivious.

I can think of a couple of transactivists, who might, in a dim light, pass. And who give absolutely zero thought to the women they encounter.

Their supreme self obsession precludes it. They may not be predatory, in the traditional sense. But they are certainly boundary violating. Because they simply don't recognise that there are any boundaries.

Your friend might be harmless. But there are 6500 genetic differences between men and women. There will be women, beyond doubt, who recognise them as male. And for whom it's a problem.

Why do they not matter? Because, according to you, they don't. They never get taken into account. Just budge up and shut up. Because a man's feelings are more important.

As to the solution? The perfect solution would be to campaign to make men accept other men who don't conform to typical masculinity.

Failing that, a third, neutral option. One which both transwomen and transmen can use, and anyone else, not trans, who doesn't mind. Thereby not 'othering' anyone.

I understand why someone who is friendly with a passing transwoman struggles. I don't understand why they consider that persons feelings more important than those of women.

What does politically mean? Can you explain? It’s a biological difference

It’s unfortunate for your friend. I’m sure they’re lovely. My husband is also lovely and no threat to women, but he doesn’t use women’s spaces.

If we create legislation that lets your friend in, however delightful they are, then all men - all of them can use women’s spaces. Because we can’t ask for GRCs, we can’t ask for a nice psych evaluation and we can’t gatekeep. If one is in, all are in.

So by wanting your friend to have access, you want mixed sex spaces for everything. Is that what you want? Own it if you do.