Talisa Garcia - transgender actress - expresses concern about wider trans umbrella and militant tactics

Nobody can change sex.

There's no such thing as "good trans" and "bad trans" that one could ever legislate for - you can't say nice men can become women but nasty ones can't. That's ludicrous. And I regard it as highly patronising to say that one would confer "good trans" status on a person because they say things one would like to hear.

Saying that we can pretend some male people are women is the Trojan horse that led us to where we are now. Besides, womanhood is not a favour to be granted by some women over other women's wishes.

Agree with MargueritaPink even when trans people bravely speak out in support of woman (which is what we’re always saying they should do!) they’re still thrown under the bus just for wanting to live as a transwoman by the same few posters. I never comment usually on FWR but it’s pretty disgusting to read sometimes.

Good on her for speaking up and I hope she doesn’t get too much abuse from TRA for it.

You actually are denying her right to exist as a trans woman

Oh, look. We're playing TRA bingo.

from the Daily Mail interview:

'Eventually, they listened. They told my parents, "this child WILL kill himself"' and she was sectioned for her own protection.

'I was furious, but with hindsight it was the best thing that happened. I got a diagnosis, an explanation for why I was different.'

At 14, she started taking female hormones; 'They were 100 per cent illegal,' she says, procured via older people in the trans community."

There are serious safeguarding and duty of care faiings described here.
The article focuses on Garcia's size, femininity and this seems to also matter to Garcia.

Its important to recognise the various contributory factors. Illegal drugs supplied by adults to a very vulnerable 14 year old should be the cause for concern, not celebration.

What about my post is so objectionable?

You actually are denying her right to exist as a trans woman. There are frequent protestations on here that the accusations by trans activists that gc feminists are denying the right of trans people to exist are not true. But that is what you are doing by diagnosing she is really a gay man.

Are you referring to loos, changing rooms ? Where do you think she should go. She looks like a woman and has had full surgery

Ah. So you're taking the "passing" threshold then?

What about the ones who think they pass but don't?

"Until then, Garcia is keen to play a parent on screen. “When you cast a transgender woman who happens to be a mother, people will start looking at it for what it is: normal.” "

Autogynephilia .. right there!

Hence the "somewhat"! I honestly don't think he's saying anything that needs applauding, just acknowledging that he said enough that TRAs will disagree with, to warrant excommunication.

It is a familiar tale though, isn't it? Childhood trauma, sex-based stereotypes, a parent who would probably prefer a straight daughter than a gay son, mental illness etc. Honestly, I'm really struggling with the sex by deception.

I will concede that it's brave to publicly go somewhat against the trans narrative

I'm not sure from the interviews that Garcia does go against 'trans narrative' not least in the affirmation of children.

In the Telegraph article Garcia's early childhood trauma is described.
(extract)
"around eight months old, Garcia was found on the streets, orphaned and starving, with a four-year-old boy, thought to be her brother. The two were separated and sent to the Ciudad del Niño orphanage, where Garcia was adopted by her mother, a lecturer at the University of Chile, and father, a mechanical engineer, who already had three biological sons."

Shortly after being adopted Garcia's had to flee Pinochet's regime.

The impact of Garcia's adoptive father views towards sex-based stereotypes expectations of boys and homosexuality were likely very significant.

Garcia concludes,

"Pivotal to everything were Garcia’s understanding parents. “It’s very important to listen to children about how they feel,” she says. “If I had a child who was five or six and I could tell they were unhappy in themselves, they were playing with the opposite sex’s toys, I would send them to a psychiatrist or give them someone to speak to.”

cf recent concerns of Tavistock GIDS professionals reported in Times article
'Staff at trans clinic fear damage to children as activists pile on pressure'

(extract)
"The report was compiled late last year by David Bell, then staff governor, whose role was to present staff concerns. It says some children “take up a trans identity as a solution” to “multiple problems such as historic child abuse in the family, bereavement . . . homophobia and a very significant incidence of autism spectrum disorder” after being “coached” online and by trans activist groups.

The true histories of “highly disturbed or complex” child patients were not properly explored by Gids clinicians struggling with “huge and unmanageable caseloads” and afraid of being accused of transphobia if they questioned the “rehearsed” surface presentation. The report says the concerns voiced by staff are shared by Sonia Appleby, who is in charge of safeguarding at the trust.

Some youngsters were referred for puberty-blocking hormones — which are usually followed at 16 by cross-sex hormones causing irreversible change and lower fertility — after just one session, the report says. The trust denied this.

Examples of cases in the report include a girl from a family with a history of abuse of females. The mother’s anxiety about having a daughter was transmitted to her child, who resolved to change gender. Another girl felt “deeply guilty” after her brother died tragically, so she decided to give her parents “their son back” by changing gender. Some openly homophobic parents sought transition for their children because they were gay." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/staff-at-trans-clinic-fear-damage-to-children-as-activists-pile-on-pressure-c5k655nq9

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3509817-Times-16-2-1-9-Staff-at-trans-clinic-fear-damage-to-children

Yes, Margueritapink, I know, you hate my posts, you've said before.
You've also anti peak transed before.

So it seems that even when a man says he's ok with calling me a man, and even if I am genuinely horrified at what has been done to him and how his life and health has been damaged, and have real sympathy with his condition, if I take him up on his offer to be truthful yet respectful, you'd still like to hold me up as some kind of example of how WRONG I am to call a man, a man, even when he has already invited me to.

I can no more pretend not to recognise him as a male than I can pretend not to recognise you, Margueritapink, as someone who has enjoyed taking a pop at me under a previous username.

What about my post is so objectionable?
That I can tell he's male?
That I took him up on his offer to 'call me a man'?
That I think it's horrific that a gay boy who was bullied and later sectioned took illegal hormones at 14, and was suicidal?
That I think it wrong he has sex with straight men who believe him to be female?

Go ahead, antipeaktrans. Whatever you think that means.
You cannot prevent this awful bloody 'Turing treatment' happening to other young gay boys if you can't even bring yourself to admit it's wrong when faced with an example such as this one.

I'll live with your disapproval.

Are you referring to loos, changing rooms ? Where do you think she should go. She looks like a woman and has had full surgery

It's not just toilets and changing rooms it's women's sports, hospital wards and prisons.

It's impossible to tell if someone will pass to all women in all situations. And it's impossible to tell what, if any surgery they have had.

I will concede that it's brave to publicly go somewhat against the trans narrative, but this smacks to me of someone who simply thinks they're "true trans" which makes them higher status than those who cross-dress or don't medically trans.

Also, I'm deeply disturbed about sex by deception, as admitted here. That's still a crime, isn't it? I know Stonewall have other ideas, but the men this person slept with, could not actually consent if they didn't know who they were giving consent to. It reminds me of this:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/gayle-newland-found-guilty-at-retrial-of-tricking-female-friend-into-sex

There have been discussions on here about peak trans and anti- peak trans moments. I ping pong between the 2. Barracker's post is a new anti- peak trans moment for me.

But I'm not bothered what words people use. Call me a woman. Call me a man. Just give me respect. All I want is a bit of respect.

OK.

Then, with real respect, and with your express permission, I will call you a man.
I read you as a man when I see and hear you, despite the writer of the article being convinced that your shoe size is so relevant. I see and hear the same exaggerated performative style, mannerisms and vocal inflection in you that I see in so many other transwomen.

I know you are a man, and I can respect you whilst knowing that.

And I read about your childhood, your conflation of stereotypes with being male or female, your bullying for being a sissy and your underage hormone self treatment. I read about you being sectioned, and your suicide attempt and suicide threats.
I hear you say you accept people calling you a man, yet I see you took advantage of a legal process that compels others to treat you as female whether they want to or not.
I read that you have had sex with men without disclosing you were male to them.

And I think you are now where you are. How easy would it be now for you to accept yourself as the gay male you actually are, who has removed his genitals and his fertility, and who was on that path long before adulthood?

I think almost impossible, now.

The damage is done.

You deserve respect, and mine is offered, but not in the form most transwomen desire.

I respect you as a male human who has been damaged by a society which does not allow camp gay boys to be themselves, and I don't want any other kids to follow your life path, despite understanding that you need to justify it to yourself and to others as the right thing for you. I think the alternative, which is the truth, is too horrific to contemplate.

That none of this was necessary, and attempting to become like the opposite sex is a dangerous, hopeless, damaging and desperately unnecessary life path.

There's a massive difference between a respectful person such as this and bullies who scream their points and need constant validation

There is those of you who are gender critical feminists are going to alienate allies by not taking account of that.

The question I always want to ask is: do you use women's spaces and services? If the answer is yes, I won't be cheerleading for you

Are you referring to loos, changing rooms ? Where do you think she should go. She looks like a woman and has had full surgery,

Also agree with Lang. Do you use female spaces? Yes - then shut up

She has as much right to speak as you have.

The responses on the daily mail are very positive towards Talisa. I think there's a massive difference between a respectful person such as this and bullies who scream their points and need constant validation.

This thread is totally beyond me.

"Some people who have transitioned from male to female carry hints of their previous life"

More than a hint in some cases.

It reminds me of a comment an Irish friend of mine made (early 90s, Troubles still ongoing). "There is no neutral language. As soon as you refer to a certain town as 'Derry' or 'Londonderry', you've picked a side."

Indeed! My daughter lives in the NI border village or Roslea (Irish spelling) but if you spell it Rosslea (the official spelling) you're dead! :)
All the shops, pubs etc call it Roslea but the village sign is Rosslea, with the second S scratched out.
Vocabulary matters. I will never call a man "she/her", not even to be polite. If he passes so well that I can't tell, then I would; otherwise it's they.

Although she won’t elaborate much further, she does say that transgender toilets are “the worst thing that could ever happen”.

The worst thing.

Yes, R0wan. I read the Telegraph interview with Baptiste and she (I usually use this pronoun with early-transitioning, old-school transsexuals, just as I write "Reverend" on envelopes of Christmas cards to my vicar friend, even though I don't believe in God) comes across as a decent sort, though like you, I more than raised an eyebrow at the bit at the end about transwomen "mothers."

But your point about "she" as an insult to the wives and families of late-transitioners is well made.

It reminds me of a comment an Irish friend of mine made (early 90s, Troubles still ongoing). "There is no neutral language. As soon as you refer to a certain town as 'Derry' or 'Londonderry', you've picked a side." The debate over pronouns is becoming like this - so polarised that any politeness (using "she") is weaponised to erode women's boundaries.

current thread, OP TinselAngel wrote:

"By respecting pronouns are we complicit in the abuse of women?
I'm currently reading Shiela Jeffrey's book, “Gender Hurts”, and pennies have started to drop for me as to why I feel it like a blow, when somebody refers to my ex husband as "she".

There’s a great chapter about trans widows, which concludes:

Feminists who accept a man as “she”, when his wife, children, mother, cannot and feel abused by the demand that they should are abandoning an increasingly large section of womankind and expunging them from the community of women who deserve respect in favour of supporting men in the exercise of their prerogatives.

Shiela says that a man trying to make his wife believe he is a woman when all her experience makes her know he is a man should be seen as a form of psychological violence."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3515543-by-respecting-pronouns-are-we-complicit-in-the-abuse-of-women

Telegraph interview: 'Baptiste star Talisa Garcia: 'I don't expect everyone to accept me as a woman'

concludes:
"Garcia also forthright in her belief that, in recent years, transgender rights activists may have done more harm to the cause than good. “This is where we get into the really hard bit,” she says. “Nowadays, we have to be very careful with what we say and what’s politically correct”. Although she won’t elaborate much further, she does say that transgender toilets are “the worst thing that could ever happen”.

“When will it stop?” she says. “We need to drop the labels. There are so many labels, people don’t know what’s what any more.”

While she thinks her appearance in Baptiste will help move the needle of public opinion on the issue of transgender, she hopes her next big role will be motherhood: she would love to start a family “if the right person comes along”. She knows she can’t have children of her own, but, having been adopted herself, doesn’t mind.

Until then, Garcia is keen to play a parent on screen. “When you cast a transgender woman who happens to be a mother, people will start looking at it for what it is: normal.”

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/talisa-garcia-like-character-baptiste-transgender

worth unpicking this?

Why is this person being applauded for for saying what we have been saying over and over? Truth. Common sense. Do we get a star on the star chart for simply being trans and talking sense? It carries more weight because they are trans?

Also agree with Lang. Do you use female spaces? Yes - then shut up.