Any Trans Inclusive feminists here?

I find it heartening that women posters have reiterated their commitment to including all women, including those who identify as Transmen and non-binary, into, well, whatever it is that we are supposed to include them in.

Now all we need is for men to follow suit and all trans people will be properly included in the includyness that they so badly need.

It was ‘educating myself’ that led me down the rabbit hole from ‘confused transally’ to ‘terfy mcterfface’.

OldCrone from what I've read it seems to have been HSTS only. Anna Madrigal from Maupin's books has a male lover. My understanding of the patrons of the Stonewall Inn is that those men who were in drag were looking for other men.
There's a few scenes in the fictionalised film made in 1995 which hit home that the men in drag are men first and foremost. Although I'm sure that 1995 film is totally off-message now, I enjoyed it at the time.

IRL, it’s actually men who are more against self ID and any belief that people can change sex, at least in my circles... women tend to put others first because of our socialisation, even if it makes us uncomfortable. Having said that, in private, I have had only 1 friend come out fully supportive that TWAW & decided to no longer be my friend because I didn’t. I have dropped one friend myself, but only because he was aggressive about the issue ( and a rich white leftie dude bro ).

*Because no one here thinks that’s appropriate. And you said “hateful and cruel” not abusive. FFS, time for bed I think.

I'm trans inclusive. Transmen, being female are included in my feminism, and I stand by trans people in their right to be accepted as trans, to live free from discrimination and bullying, whilst being comitted to preserving same-sex spaces for women, and recognising biology. Not hard.

I agree with this.

Thank you for this. I know that people will think my previous post is goady, but it really isn't meant to be

My pleasure. There are lots of links on the thread which help to provide the wider context.

We have all being new to the issues.

Not goady, TheShiteRunner but it’s a big deal to say that people are posting cruel and abusive things about trans people. I’ve rarely seen it, and it’s been reported and removed when it has, so I just wanted to know where you had seen it, but no one here thinks that’s appropriate.

in real life about this has been horrified when they discover the majority of transwomen don't have surgery, yet a huge number of TW still want access to female space.

Also people often really still don't get this, due to the less than open way this subject is discussed and the confusing and obfuscatory language. Many people also think "trans woman" means a female person identifying as a man.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

I thought that was quite a good point, then it made me wonder - are we ever visited here by women who have transitioned?

Links to women who 'transitioned' and are now describing their experiences from the perspective of 'de-transitioning':

'One of them detransitioned women'

www.peaktrans.org/detransitioning/

Four young females Q&A

Discussion of interviews with a woman whose PSTD and sexual abuse when she was a child was not recognised prior to medical intervention which wrongly affirmed her being 'transgender':
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3414138-Im-not-meant-to-be-a-bloke-Woman-who-changed-gender-to-become-man-called-Lee-says-sex-swap-was-a-huge-mistake

Thanks Captain Kirk - they sound like the kind of concerns I have, I shall read up on Debbie Hayton.

TheShiteRunner, keeping reading, keep learning, keep women as your priority. You'll do fine. Ignore my bad temper today, short fuse due to extremely stressful circumstances, related to biology.

See mine is totally different, even going by Pinknew's own statistics 80% of the public are against it.

YY. It is absolutely not the case that "most people don't have a problem with self ID" when it is explained to them what it actually means with regard to single sex spaces and things like the right to have a female rape counsellor and not a male.

does anyone else get the feeling that the OP hasn't properly read the responses and thinks all of those saying they include trans people in their feminism mean they include trans identifying men?

No i think they've only just realised Transmen exist and have realised we are on the whole not excluding Tran identifing people.

It was ‘educating myself’ that led me down the rabbit hole from ‘confused transally’ to ‘terfy mcterfface’.

I dont' think you're alone, there, Betty.

am genuinely not sure where I stand on all this and can see both sides
I was on the fence toountil i researched and started reading things by debbie Hayton and other transsexuals who are against self ID and are worried about children and getting attacked by TRA's too.

does anyone else get the feeling that the OP hasn't properly read the responses and thinks all of those saying they include trans people in their feminism mean they include trans identifying men? Oh dear...

Many people new to some of the wider issues have found this thread useful:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Thank you for this. I know that people will think my previous post is goady, but it really isn't meant to be. I am genuinely not sure where I stand on all this and can see both sides. I have never been on the fence like this about any issue before so I am really keen to educate myself about it!

My experience is that irl people have no issue with self identification, but that it's very difficult to have that conversation here on MN (as this thread proves.)

Every single person I have spoken to in real life about this has been horrified when they discover the majority of transwomen don't have surgery, yet a huge number of TW still want access to female space. The public were under the illusion that transwomen go to great lengths to change their bodies, but when faced with the realisation that no surgery / hormones are required to identify as a woman, they quickly become extremely concerned about the potential risks to biological women.

I am guessing that the vast majority of transwomen (for example) in 1970s SF were previously gay men. Whereas now there are many people who were previously referred to as straight male transvestites included under the trans umbrella.

There seemed to be a difference back then that those transwomen knew they weren't actually women. Some of them were drag queens who went by female names and pronouns, but didn't have any surgical/medical treatment to change their bodies and knew they were really men.

Just going by what I've read about it, so prepared to be told I'm wrong if someone knows better

and made pronouncements about being non binary, and when you were asked what you mean by that told people to 'educate themselves

It was ‘educating myself’ that led me down the rabbit hole from ‘confused transally’ to ‘terfy mcterfface’.

A ‘be careful what you wish for’ situation, for sure.

The OP isn't talking about self id, they are using this thread as a continuation of another thread where they are promoting a view about intersex conditions that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Whilst calling people responding "assholes" and other insults.

Sorry- I genuinely didn't realise that this was a TAAT. Will probably be deleted soon then.

I know I've said that disagreement is very useful usually, in terms of talking about gender critical feminism.

But sometimes disagreement is just daft.

My experience is that irl people have no issue with self identification, but that it's very difficult to have that conversation here on MN (as this thread proves.)

What's your opinion on Karen White?
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6687873/UK-jails-transgender-wings-two-female-inmates-sexually-assaulted-trans-inmate.html

Is Jaxi the OP trawling for screen shots or something?
Been 'scooting' around the boards attention seeking all morning...

I support women who support other women, real ones.
Lang, I like the term Women's Lib, it is clearer.