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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

At the doctor's office with DD yesterday

29 replies

FromEden · 03/02/2019 19:14

And the form asked for "gender identity". The options were male, female, male to female transgender, female to male transgender, genderqueer or other not listed (no idea what could be in that category). First time I've seen anything like that.

So at least they reference biological sex, except if you tick genderqueer or other I suppose. Why not have a section for sex and another for gender identity though? Surely a medical office should know that sex actually matters when it comes to healthcare!

OP posts:
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R0wantrees · 04/02/2019 12:03

apologies for messy extract.

R0wantrees · 04/02/2019 12:02

Rebecca Reilly Cooper,
'Gender is not a spectrum
The idea that ‘gender is a spectrum’ is supposed to set us free. But it is both illogical and politically troubling'
(extract)

hat is gender? This is a question that cuts to the very heart of feminist theory and practice, and is pivotal to current debates in social justice activism about class, identity and privilege. In everyday conversation, the word ‘gender’ is a synonym for what would more accurately be referred to as ‘sex’. Perhaps due to a vague squeamishness about uttering a word that also describes sexual intercourse, the word ‘gender’ is now euphemistically used to refer to the biological fact of whether a person is female or male, saving us all the mild embarrassment of having to invoke, however indirectly, the bodily organs and processes that this bifurcation entails.

The word ‘gender’ originally had a purely grammatical meaning in languages that classify their nouns as masculine, feminine or neuter. But since at least the 1960s, the word has taken on another meaning, allowing us to make a distinction between sex and gender. For feminists, this distinction has been important, because it enables us to acknowledge that some of the differences between women and men are traceable to biology, while others have their roots in environment, culture, upbringing and education – what feminists call ‘gendered socialisation’.

At least, that is the role that the word gender traditionally performed in feminist theory. It used to be a basic, fundamental feminist idea that while sex referred to what is biological, and so perhaps in some sense ‘natural’, gender referred to what is socially constructed. On this view, which for simplicity we can call the radical feminist view, gender refers to the externally imposed set of norms that prescribe and proscribe desirable behaviour to individuals in accordance with morally arbitrary characteristics.

Not only are these norms external to the individual and coercively imposed, but they also represent a binary caste system or hierarchy, a value system with two positions: maleness above femaleness, manhood above womanhood, masculinity above femininity. Individuals are born with the potential to perform one of two reproductive roles, determined at birth, or even before, by the external genitals that the infant possesses. From then on, they will be inculcated into one of two classes in the hierarchy: the superior class if their genitals are convex, the inferior one if their genitals are concave.

From birth, and the identification of sex-class membership that happens at that moment, most female people are raised to be passive, submissive, weak and nurturing, while most male people are raised to be active, dominant, strong and aggressive. This value system, and the process of socialising and inculcating individuals into it, is what a radical feminist means by the word ‘gender’. Understood like this, it’s not difficult to see what is objectionable and oppressive about gender, since it constrains the potential of both male and female people alike, and asserts the superiority of males over females. So, for the radical feminist, the aim is to abolish gender altogether: to stop putting people into pink and blue boxes, and to allow the development of individuals’ personalities and preferences without the coercive influence of this socially enacted value system. (continues)

Humans of both sexes would be liberated if we recognised that while gender is indeed an internal, innate, essential facet of our identities, there are more genders than just ‘woman’ or ‘man’ to choose from. And the next step on the path to liberation is the recognition of a new range of gender identities: so we now have people referring to themselves as ‘genderqueer’ or ‘non-binary’ or ‘pangender’ or ‘polygender’ or ‘agender’ or ‘demiboy’ or ‘demigirl’ or ‘neutrois’ or ‘aporagender’ or ‘lunagender’ or ‘quantumgender’… I could go on. An oft-repeated mantra among proponents of this view is that ‘gender is not a binary; it’s a spectrum’. What follows from this view is not that we need to tear down the pink and the blue boxes; rather, we simply need to recognise that there are many more boxes than just these two.

At first blush this seems an appealing idea, but there are numerous problems with it, problems that render it internally incoherent and politically unattractive.

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Many proponents of the queer view of gender describe their own gender identity as ‘non-binary’, and present this in opposition to the vast majority of people whose gender identity is presumed to be binary. On the face of it, there seems to be an immediate tension between the claim that gender is not a binary but a spectrum, and the claim that only a small proportion of individuals can be described as having a non-binary gender identity. If gender really is a spectrum, doesn’t this mean that every individual alive is non-binary, by definition? If so, then the label ‘non-binary’ to describe a specific gender identity would become redundant, because it would fail to pick out a special category of people. (continues)

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

BelleSausage · 04/02/2019 12:01

Sex! Not sexy! Stupid predictive text 😬

BelleSausage · 04/02/2019 12:01

I actually prefer that.

So sexy is actually recorded accurately. But you could record ‘gender’ separately. I’d go for that.

R0wantrees · 04/02/2019 11:58

Explaining non-binary to DD (who's actually 6, but can read well) was fun....

The A&E are complicit in normalising a regressive ideology to children

R0wantrees · 04/02/2019 11:56

The A&E should not be promoting ideology.

Children are boys or girls (m/f)

Some may be being treated for possible gender dysphoria.

SheepyFun · 04/02/2019 11:37

Oh it gets better. DD was sent a questionnaire after attending A&E, designed for children aged 7 and up. It asked:

Are you a:

boy? girl? non-binary? prefer not to say?

Explaining non-binary to DD (who's actually 6, but can read well) was fun....

R0wantrees · 04/02/2019 11:36

My local health centre is just as bloody woke

Maybe they should be encouraged to be inclusive and may not be aware of all the different gender identities. If they are limiting the expression to male/female/non-binary they are discriminating against those who identify as agender, pangender etc etc

Expanding the gender identity question is the only logical way forward for organisations intent on being inclusive.

They can then also have a separate box for sex eg M/F

PositivelyPERF · 04/02/2019 11:28

My local health centre is just as bloody woke. I put a line through gender and wrote sex. I then told the receptionist that there was a silly mistake on the form but I corrected it. 😉😁

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/02/2019 11:27

But there’s the ‘so what’ question.

Patient - ‘Doctor I’m male but identify as a jellyfish.’
Doctor - ‘So what? I’m still going to have to check your BP and cholesterol’

R0wantrees · 04/02/2019 11:25

There needs to be two questions, one with sex which is unchanging so M/F and one for gender identity which includes an open box as there are upwards of 70 gender identities and some will write N/A.

This is especially neccessary in health as biological sex has specific health implications and ensures that data is accurate

Including 'gender identity' but as an additional question is likely the best way forward .

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/02/2019 10:59

I was asked for DS gender (not sex) on a consent form for a school thing. Worryingly enough it was for a residential trip.

FloralCup · 04/02/2019 10:50

Tick other then write - I've never been asked my gender identity before, what a wonderfully interesting thought provoking question, let me ponder it and get back to you...

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/02/2019 10:23

I’d write

Magical being
Witch
Supermodel by day astrophysicist by night
Tadpole
Desktop lamp
Space mist/aurora borealis
The queen of everything
Rather pissed off sock person who hasn’t the patience for all this crap

FFSFFSFFS · 04/02/2019 09:35

Was there a box for

"I believe the concept of gender is a repressive ideology that harms both sexes"?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 04/02/2019 08:17

Yes. I'd probably make a point of writing something along those lines on any form that left me thinking "I don't have a bloody gender identity"

I'll add that to scribbling out Gender and writing in Sex at every opportunity!

BrassBellsAndElephants · 04/02/2019 07:53

That sounds to me like the most sensible outcome, Curious.

Otherwise, I'd have to tick 'other' 'none'. Because I don't have a 'gender identity'. I am a woman. Gender is imposed upon me. It doesn't exist in my head.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 04/02/2019 07:47

Oh! I quite like that approach:

  1. Mandatory: Tell us your biological sex so we can offer you the correct medical support
  1. Optional: Tell us your gender identity so we can communicate with you without error, offer you social/psychological support.

If that became the norm I would be extremely happy!

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/02/2019 07:43

‘I give it little to no thought’ - id make my own box.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 03/02/2019 22:12

Well then logically you tick 'other'. As that is true. And your healthcare providers have no idea if you are male or female. Which worryingly they seem to think is irrelevant.

heresyandwitchcraft · 03/02/2019 22:08

My "gender identity" isn't female, I just am one. It's a biological reality. By all means if someone identifies as something different than their biological sex, have a question for that as well as one for their sex which is very relevant in a healthcare setting

Yep. That would seem like the most practical solution. How does it work in the US? Does each practice set their own rules?

FromEden · 03/02/2019 21:37

I'm in the US. I was just taken aback that it actually said "gender identity" rather than just sex or gender.

My "gender identity" isn't female, I just am one. It's a biological reality. By all means if someone identifies as something different than their biological sex, have a question for that as well as one for their sex which is very relevant in a healthcare setting

OP posts:
heresyandwitchcraft · 03/02/2019 21:18

OP, I am not sure what country you are based in.

But in the UK, the NHS seems to go by "gender" instead of actual biology.....

If you haven't read the amazing work of a MNer who goes by Anne Harper-Wright on Medium on the question of sex vs gender in the NHS, please do check out her essays.

The one about records:
medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-bb86b0c3ebb
Thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3422736-My-NHS-Medical-Record-has-deleted-my-sex-And-added-a-ladybrain

and a similar discussion:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3419746-What-should-your-NHS-Medical-Record-hold-about-you-Sex-or-gender-Identity

"Female-only" spaces in the NHS:
medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6
Thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396859-Weve-been-lied-to-about-Single-SEX-wards-since-2010

nauticant · 03/02/2019 19:53

Yep, two boxes with the "I am special" box being optional. The fact that someone has decided to fill it in would be useful to know in dealing with them.

HeartsTrumpDiamonds · 03/02/2019 19:22

OP exactly.

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