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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Judith Butler defends Genderism in New Statesman, and Jane Clare Jones critiques it

113 replies

kesstrel · 22/01/2019 16:09

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1087725670988427265

My opinion of Judith Butler sinks still further....

OP posts:
ChewyLouie · 23/01/2019 08:58

the point was to say this binary model of gender is rooted in a religious system designed to control women.
Dismantling the system will not happen by further strengthening gender presentations and denying sex based differences.
The current TWAW trend to switch genders serves only to weaken safe spaces for women but strengthens the ability of predatory men to wilfully harm women. It is simply another system to suppress women’s freedom of movement, of expression, of thought.

AngryAttackKittens · 23/01/2019 08:57

I honestly think this is a case of the New Statesman giving Butler enough rope to hang herself.

I suspect this too. Although I wouldn't envy the person assigned the task, it would be possible to edit Butler's article in such a way as to make it clearer for the reader, and if the point she was trying to make was the one ChattyLion claims it would be possible to make that clear too. The editors chose to let her, well, be Butler, in all her pompous glory. That's an active choice, not an accident.

Maybe Helen Lewis has had pomo fans sending her this shit and decided it was time for everyone else to feel her pain, or maybe she just thought that if the New Statesman is going to cover the trans debate it was important for context for their readers to get a sense of how queer theorists see the world. I tend to think their doing so works in the favor of GC feminists.

donquixotedelamancha · 23/01/2019 08:56

We've struggled to find an appropriate name for the genderist nutters for a long time. TRAs gives them too much credit and ropes ordinary transgender people into the madness.

I think Butlerian Jihadi's is a winner.

Ambroise · 23/01/2019 08:45

Some of you might find this article ‘The Butlerian Jihad’ an interesting read:

conatusnews.com/countering-postmodernism-relativism/

merrymouse · 23/01/2019 08:38

I honestly think this is a case of the New Statesman giving Butler enough rope to hang herself. Helen Lewis is the Deputy Editor and very much regarded as a TERF by TRAs.

andyoldlabour · 23/01/2019 08:32

Why am I not surprised by this?
Judith Butler - philosopher and gender theorist.
The New Statesman has changed over the years, from being quite left wing - against the Iraq war, which I agreed with, to a publication which in 2009 had Alastair Campbell as its guest editor.
It has become a neo Liberal mouthpiece.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 23/01/2019 08:26

but the point was to say this binary model of gender is rooted in a religious system designed to control women

this is precisely what GC feminists believe Skyzalimit

where they differ from Butler is in understanding that women face structural inequalities as a direct result of their sex. this seems to have passed Butler by. I'd love to understand why - is it stupidity, or (as I suspect), willful blindness for the sake of political expediency?

merrymouse · 23/01/2019 07:59

the point was to say this binary model of gender is rooted in a religious system designed to control women.

Except she believes in classifying people according to gender.

merrymouse · 23/01/2019 07:57

Not getting it is not your fault or hers- it's to do with classist education systems which limit access to philosophical ideas and skills.

I think the fact that I am 6 inches shorter than the men in my family, risk gestating a human for 9 months after sex and bleed profusely from my genitals every 4 weeks is a result of being female.

I also think there is some link between all these things and women being denied the right to vote - until the 70’s and 80’s in some parts of Europe.

You on the other hand seem to think that these are freak occurrences with no consequence that could happen to anyone and that I should really focus on classifying my identity.

Please explain.

Skyzalimit · 23/01/2019 07:44

I dont see anything groundbreaking in Jane Clare Jones's analysis.

Saying you don't understand Butler is a bit self-undermining- it sort of invites readers to dismiss your subsequent arguments.

Not getting it is not your fault or hers- it's to do with classist education systems which limit access to philosophical ideas and skills.

The point of the history of ideas- Butlet's field- is to reveal the roots of belief hidden in the mists of time. She could have tipped her hat to contemporary GC feminists for the sake of placating, sure, but the point was to say this binary model of gender is rooted in a religious system designed to control women.

She's basically calling contemporary GC feminists Serena Joys.

ChattyLion · 23/01/2019 07:36

More context about Hungary and the gender studies ban:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3457603-gender-study-ban

Butler and protests against her:
www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/11/13/judith-butler-discusses-being-burned-effigy-and-protested-brazil
HT PencilsinSpace

More about queer theory
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3355827-Queer-theory-and-what-it-means-in-extremis

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3457855-Patrick-Strudwick-on-why-feminism-should-include-TW
Example of UK academics on ‘why feminism should include TW’ Hmm

Threads on actual, personal harassment of UK academics who are gender critical are too numerous to find and paste here in the time I have available this morning Sad

KataraJean · 23/01/2019 07:30

The article by Butler does have some sense in it, in so far as it advocates personal freedom to live as one wishes. Where I parted from it was the assertion that someone born female can become a man and I lost the thread of the argument afterwards. No, someone born female can live and present in ways that society deems masculine. They should of course be free to do so.

I agree with fallingirl (I think I have the name correct, on phone) that a social scientist should be aware of the structural inequalities in which such choices are made and lived out. Gender from a feminist perspective is a system of hierarchy along sex-based lines.

ChattyLion · 23/01/2019 07:18

Judith Butler is not the only academic who writes about this stuff nor is she personally responsible for TRA actions. And unlike a lot of the vacuous man-pleasing UK academics self-righteously (and wrongly) slating other feminists for being transphobic- Butler has faced particular personal opposition for her views and faced demonstrators particularly when visiting catholic countries about her academic views. She has for reason to write about Catholicism and her work.

This article is also written in the context of Hungary where authoritarian radical sexist government had shut down gender studies departments particularly and whole universities.

Ironically perhaps given the experiences of women in UK and other countries’ academia who are gender critical and face personal attacks and a loss of academic freedom on this basis, Butler is making a plea for academic freedom (which I would support).

Butler was not writing about the policing of everyday language, risks to children’s health, women’s right to opportunities for women only, and the fact that all women’s safety privacy and dignity is under threat by TRA ideas that are rapidly and without democratic examination being put into public policy. I wish she would.

But hopefully a UK academic like Clare Jones or Rosa Freedman or any of those brave women in academia who have dared to put their head above the parapet could write an article to point out those issues for those who don’t know. Or for those who are so wokely misogynistic they don’t care Hmm but who still desperately want to believe they are massively right-on and not in fact making boundsry-erasing arguments for dangerous, sexist numbskulls.

deepwatersolo · 23/01/2019 06:54

Judith's argument that gender theory affords people freedom - which is only true as long as you tow the line reminds me of the argument around the free choice of wearing the headscarf - until you try to take it off again.

Coyoacan · 23/01/2019 01:30

Judith Butler and Jordan Peterson are well and truly cut from the same cloth

The one thing they have in common is that they are both so very, very overrated.

Fallingirl · 22/01/2019 23:49

It increasingly pisses me off, when experienced social scientists completely ignore power structures, as Butlerdoes here.

Yes, it would actually be lovely if everyone could freely choose genders and behave, or perform, in any way they like, IF we were all completely equal to begin with, and no one was a threat to anyone else, and no one had to do all the shitty unpaid work that noone wants to do. BUT THAT IS NOT THE WORLD WE HAVE.

A social scientist who does not understand that power dynamics influence who do what, should consider doing some research, or retire.

FloralBunting · 22/01/2019 23:48

JB:I see no problem with women having a penis, and men having a vagina.

It's a nonsense, isn't it? 'I see no problem'. What in? An episode of a sci fi show where they explore impossible things?

I see no problem with having wings. But it's not a physical reality so it doesn't really matter what my opinion is on the matter and won't change whatever silly arse cobblers I write to sound ever so clever.

MargueritaPink · 22/01/2019 23:36

Dear God. I always rather assumed that (given her prominence and esteem) Butler would be insightful and able to form a strong argument

Why would you think that? Butler hasn't been on the radical feminist side for years- in fact she says here that she never agreed with Janice Raymond and Sheila Jeffries.

When I first started posting on here Butler was often mentioned with approval because of that "perfomativity" "performing femininity" clap-trap (which frankly came across as little more than sneering at feminine women)

radfem.transadvocate.com/gender-performance-an-interview-with-judith-butler/

JB:I see no problem with women having a penis, and men having a vagina.

Melroses · 22/01/2019 22:55

notazerosumgame.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-freedom-to-be-or-become-gender.html?spref=tw

Another piece on JB retweeted by Kathleen Stock.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 22/01/2019 22:24

well yes, he certainly can argue

he sure errs towards a certain pedagogical circuity in his expositions though

i would say he has that in common with butler

donquixotedelamancha · 22/01/2019 22:17

Judith Butler and Jordan Peterson are well and truly cut from the same cloth

Not often I'd get the chance to say this, but I think that's grossly unfair to Peterson:

  • He can argue, she can't.
BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 22/01/2019 22:15

jesus, Judith Butler and Jordan Peterson are well and truly cut from the same cloth

none of that made any fucking sense

it basically seemed to boil down to 'the pope wants to ban gay marriage, so you should agree with gender theory. never mind what gender theory actually is'

donquixotedelamancha · 22/01/2019 22:15

She deliberately writes to obscure and confuse.

I think this is true of a lot of people who want to appear clever. Genuinely clever people make their points clearly. I really struggle with how this can be accepted in universities.

In my field (Science) it's just unimaginable- if someone doesn't understand you, they keep asking until you are both completely clear what is being described. Claiming something to be true which is not supported by evidence (as opposed to merely suggesting a possible idea) is career death.

AngryAttackKittens · 22/01/2019 22:10

I am so sick of political tribalism of the "well those bastards over there approve of it so I have to hate it on principle" variety. I'm pretty sure that the Pope would also share my belief that gravity exists and therefore jumping off tall buildings without a parachute is inadvisable despite our complete lack of agreement on theological issues.

Carowiththegoodhair · 22/01/2019 22:06

That piece gave me the rage. She couldn’t even get the theology right, let alone the Catholics believe this so you shouldn’t non-sequitur. Catholics believe the earth is round, so you shouldn’t either?

And as someone said, since when has the feminist position derived from the Pope. Hmm

Oh and PS DH Catholic priest (waves for the screenshot) peak transes everyone by talking about he, as a dad to 4 daughters was so upset by the BBC documentary with the woman who had de transitioned, who said “I wish someone had told me its ok for girls to like football and climb trees and still be girls.”

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