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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Queer theory - and what it means in extremis

54 replies

deepwatersolo · 04/09/2018 16:14

I have signed up again after a long pause, particularly because I wanted to share this in the light of current events, and because questions about Queer theory were asked (I lurked on here), and I just saw a revelatory talk about it on you tube.

Derrick Jepsen boils it down to:
violating social norms, in order to subvert power structures.

You could argue that how the Soufragettes acted was 'not normal' at the time, same for Gays&Lesbians with their Parades, and it indeed worked and freed them. You could make the same point for people who defy gender norms (trans umbrella), to subvert the prison of gender expectations. (Of course, most would argue that this is fine, as long as women's rights are respected. Queer theorists might however argue that the fact that women's rights are a social norm now means, women now are the oppressors).

However, Queer theorists basically say every social norm is an expression of oppression and must be subverted - which also leads to the rationalization of paedophilia. Here is an interesting summary of Queer theory's position on paedophilia in form of a quiz at a uni lecture by Jepsen:



(I recommend the whole lecture, also about anarchy and mysogyny. the paedophilia section as a whole starts at 1:51:30: .

I found that quite enlightening and thought, I'll share it on here. Smile
OP posts:
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NameChangedAgain18 · 04/09/2018 16:35

Dear god, the tantruming kids in that classroom. What pathetic brats.

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VickyEadie · 04/09/2018 16:37

"Queer theory" looks to me like nothing more than a means of making some people's appalling kinks 'acceptable'.

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carceralfeminist · 04/09/2018 16:58

What is this video, and who are these entitled assholes who can't even listen to a person reading what sounds like eco-poetry?
Give them some cough drops and tell them to turn their fucking phones off.
They're just as bad as the Scientologists trying to punish "suppressive persons."

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terryleather · 04/09/2018 16:59

I've never understood how "violating social norms" or queering does anything to change systems and structures of power - it only seems to allows for individuals to change themselves, so as an e.g a female can trans and escape the position of subordination in the gender hierarchy ("I'm alright Jack"), but it does nothing to address the actual patriarchal power structures themselves. The individual is all, no class analysis - very neoliberal.

It also strikes me as very masculine in it's ideas about transgressing boundaries as a good in and of itself.

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Forgotthebins · 04/09/2018 18:08

I think it's quite sweeping to dismiss a whole area of theory. Different queer theorists interact with feminism in different ways, and it branched off into different ideas all the time (at least it seemed that way when I was reading it in the 90s). When queer theory started it was also against the backdrop of the AIDS epidemic and anti-retroviral therapy was only just getting established - the ideas of performance and carnival were a sort of anti-death, anti-fear kind of statement, I thought. There were certainly strands that I thought were absolute rubbish even back then but some theorists were interesting/useful. It was primarily a way to interpret literature and culture, and to set out a way of looking at the world which hadn't had much of a voice in mainstream academia, not a way to suppress or destroy anyone - but admittedly I've not been reading it for the last 20 years.

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user1471453601 · 04/09/2018 18:16

Umm, I think my DD is gay cos she fell in love with a woman 25 years ago. She (and I) don't need a social construct to explain it.

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terryleather · 04/09/2018 18:22

It held sway when I was art school many moons ago too Forgot - There is no such thing as absolute truth was our mantra and I agree that as far as the arts are concerned it had interesting things to say but wrt say, science or as a way of understanding the world and power structures I don't find it helpful.

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BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted · 04/09/2018 18:28

Someone linked to Sheila Jefferies doing a phone interview with a radio station quite recently (I don't know who you are but thanks, it was fascinating) about Queer Theory. She's published a book which I haven't read yet entitled something like (I think) "Unpacking Queer Theory". I don't totally get the whole thing about QT which I found rather impenetrable, which I suspect is the intention, but it occurred to me that the "trans" doesn't stand as short-hand for "transition" but for "transgression".

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terryleather · 04/09/2018 18:35

I've got unpacking queer theory in my to read pile - it's available for free on line as are other feminist texts including some Dworkin (sorry don't know how to link on my phone)

I'm minded to start reading it now!

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carceralfeminist · 04/09/2018 19:07

Interesting that he approaches it from the point of view of anarchism, and talks about the problem with the idea that all social norms must be destroyed.

And that none of these mouthy little miscreants can define "woman." The best some joker could get to is a collection of things we as society have labelled woman. Or something. Jensen was NOT having it.

It really tells you why this debate is about boundaries, and safeguarding. Because if Jensen is right, then it's baked into queer theory itself. And queer theory is just word salad.

Bullet points from the video here. Note, these are Derrick Jensen's claims:

-There is a long correlation between anarchism and paedophilia. (All the kids get upset!)

-Foucalt is commonly known as the godfather of queer theory. Foucalt argued for the eradication of age of consent laws (as in down to infant).

-The author of the founding document of Queer Theory is Gayle Rubin. 50% in that article is about defending paedophilia, specifically "boy lovers." Quote from the founding document: "like communists and homosexuals of the 1950s, boy lovers are so stigmatized it is difficult to find defenders of their civil liberties, let alone for their erotic orientation." She compared paedophilia to a preference for spicy food.......

  • Author of Public Sex , Pat Califia wrote "any child old enough to decide whether or not she or he wats to eat spinach, play with trucks or wear shoes is old enough to decide whether or not she or he wants to run around naked in the sun, masturbate sit in somebody's lap or engage in sexual activity." Allegedly advocates that paedophiles should be more involved with children.


  • Judith Butler, most famous queer theorist of today. Wrote that there are some forms of incest that are probably not traumatic.


-No queer theorist has spoken out strongly against paedophilia.

-Queer theory is a harmful philosophy, comes from post-modernism and is a response to lesbian feminism. (Interesting that it's now the 2nd wavers that are fighting it.)

-Queer is by definition against all that is normal. The problem is that it is based on a blanket attack everything, without making distinctions to preserve behaviours that are helpful. Even within a horribly oppressive structure, there are still norms worth keeping. Queer theory is too broad, based on getting rid of boundaries. But some norms should not be transgressed (i.e. paedophilia is never okay!!!!)


(No wonder women/parents are instinctively reacting against this philosophy. It's also very worrying that these ideas have taken such hold without being counter-balanced.... The annihilation of norms does help explain the tendency of trans extremists to also belong to extreme left wing/anarchy/communist/antifa/scary people groups. It lends credence to the idea that the goal of hardcore proponents of queer ideology is destroying clear boundaries/definitions, and it probably does excuse bad behaviour to a certain extent because one could argue one is "queering" codes of conduct. After seeing the video I am nor surprised this debate is about safeguards...)
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user1471453601 · 04/09/2018 19:10

Oh, for ducks sake, people are not defined by who they love. People are defined by that they love. All this sudo educational shit means nothing. Love is love. And by "duck" I mean fuck. Auto correct is a bugger

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terryleather · 04/09/2018 19:55

Queer theory and PoMo are the terrible twins imao.

As I said previously queer theory (and probably PoMo to a greater degree now that I think about it) was the order of the day when I was a student. That means it's had 30 years or more to percolate down and influence so many of those now running all our institutions.

carcel I agree with much of what you say in your post esp wrt transgressing boundaries.

If that's seen as an end in itself in certain situations then there are some very scary safeguarding implications...

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Anlaf · 04/09/2018 20:01

Am v interested in this as have been blissfully unaware of Queer Theory til this year.

My new absolute fave Jane Care Jones has a dissertation piece on Qt and Foucault which I have not read yet, but she describes as some general further background on how we got into this whole fucking mess

janeclarejones.com/2018/08/30/queer-theory-foucauldian-feminism-and-the-erasure-of-rape/

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terryleather · 04/09/2018 20:21

Oh that looks really interesting Anlaf will have a look later, Jane Clare Jones is great on Twitter so I think that will be well worth reading.

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Forgotthebins · 04/09/2018 20:24

terry leather
I agree that the attack on truth is a wider problem of pomo theory, which even at its most frivolous tends to separate actual things from the language used to talk about them - which is why (not a feminist point exactly but related) I think people like Jack and Dinos Chapman were actually being evil when they said that war only exists on TV screens now - obvious rubbish, but you can see how all this stuff has primed people for "fake news". But 20 years ago it did seem useful to go back and re-read things knowing that when they were written, there were certain things that couldn't be said, and to read them again in that light. It didn't feel like the sort of identitarian movement that the word 'queer' suggests now. Maybe I always had it all wrong though.

Anyway, defending my 20 year old readings of Henry James isn't the Mumsnet hill I want to die on so I should probably leave it there.

The Jane Clare Jones piece is very good - I wish I'd had that 20 years ago, I'd have spent much less time trying to work out what was useful/interesting about Foucault.

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Anlaf · 04/09/2018 20:33

Jcj really needs a thread of her own. Here she is being excellent on why if you wish to be seen as a woman, you should listen to women (scroll up)

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1037028354224992256?s=19

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ChiaraRimini · 04/09/2018 20:58

"Queer theory" doesn't seem like much of a theory, to be polite. All norms should be transgressed?
From a science background one would have to ask, why? How have you arrived at the conclusion that this is a good idea? What evidence is there? Of course there is no evidence. There is no clear hypothesis to be tested. It is ridiculous dogma.
Incest, cannibalism - presumably it's open season in the name of "queer theory".

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terryleather · 04/09/2018 21:01

If I could have seen where PoMo and queer theory would take us I don't think I'd have been quite so enamoured as I was back in the day Forgotthe but I guess that's why they say hindsight is such a wonderful
thing!

It didn't feel like the sort of identitarian movement that the word 'queer' suggests now.
Very much agree with the above.

And yes Anlaf I agree JCJ deserves a thread of her own.

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honestmushroom · 04/09/2018 21:54

place marking

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Anlaf · 04/09/2018 23:05

I'm very much enjoying jcj's dissertation piece linked above.

It is inevitably more theory heavy than other stuff on her blog/twitter. I have looked up four terms already (qua, post-structuralism, effacement, actus reus).

Here is jane clare Jones kicking great lumps out of Foucault's exceptionally dodgy thinking. First passage is this Foucault fellow, the second JCJ:

One day in 1867, a farm hand from the village of Lapcourt, who was somewhat simple-minded, employed here then there, depending on the season, living handto-mouth from a little charity or in exchange for the worst sort of labor, sleeping in barns and stables, was turned in to the authorities. At the border of a field, he had obtained a few caresses from a little girl, just as he had done before and seen done by the village urchins round about him; for, at the edge of the wood, or in the ditch by the road leading to Saint-Nicolas, they would play the familiar game called ‘curdled milk.’ So he was pointed out by the girl's parents to the mayor of the village, reported by the mayor to the gendarmes, led by the gendarmes to the judge, who indicted him and turned him over first to a doctor, then to two other experts who not only wrote their report but also had it published. What is the significant thing about this story? The pettiness of it all; the fact that this everyday occurrence in the life of village sexuality, these inconsequential bucolic pleasures, could become, from a certain time, the object not only of a collective intolerance but of a judicial action, a medical intervention, a careful clinical examination, and an entire theoretical elaboration (Foucault 1978:31)

JCJ: In case is not abundantly clear what’s wrong here, allow me to enumerate: 1. The detailed attention given to establishing the person of the farm hand, intended to elicit sympathy for his hardship. 2. The absence of any similar personification of the victim, a mere ‘little girl’ without history. 3. The obfuscatory use of the passive to avoid naming the farm hand as the agent of the action, and deflect attention from how the non-specific ‘caresses’ were ‘obtained.’ 4. The exculpation of this action by appeal to its normality, noting that it had been done before and that other ‘urchins’ had also done it. 5. The attempt to make the action picaresque by relaying a purportedly charming pastoral term for that type of caress that produces ‘curdled milk.’ 6. The further exculpation of the action by noting that this purportedly charming pastoral activity was ‘familiar’ and a ‘game.’ 7. The inattention to the fact that the parents’ reporting of the incident might suggest that it was more than just that. 8. The attention given to the disciplinary response aimed at the farm hand. 9. The total absence of concern for the consequences for the victim. 10. The claim that the story’s significance is its ‘pettiness.’ 11. The minimization of sexual abuse as an “everyday occurrence in the life of village sexuality.” 12. The claim that such acts are “inconsequential.” 13. The claim that they are “bucolic.” 14. The suggestion that what is most outrageous about this story is the “collective intolerance” directed at the poor unfortunate farm hand as opposed to the apologia for the molestation of children.

BRAVA

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Ereshkigal · 04/09/2018 23:08

I've got unpacking queer theory in my to read pile - it's available for free on line as are other feminist texts including some Dworkin (sorry don't know how to link on my phone)

Do, I found it invaluable to get my head around where this stuff came from.

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Coyoacan · 25/10/2018 04:15

Uuuf, this is a real education. But queer theory (at least by its manifestations, I still have to read up) seems to just sheer nihilism, destroying for the sake of destroying, including children, with no positive goal in sight. And then we have the odd phenomena that it has almost complete institutional support. I don't think I've ever seem something so much a part of the establishment being so thoroughly supported by students before and maybe this is where the resemblance to fascism lies.

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IdaBWells · 25/10/2018 05:27

Who is missing from academia? Children.

Whose concerns are barely mentioned when talking about theories of individualism? Parents.

The necessary dependence of children upon trusted adults which is the basis of a health society, does not seem to be the basis of these theories.

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deepwatersolo · 25/10/2018 06:56

Seeing this thread popping up again: I think what annoys me most here is the reaction of the ‚queer‘ crowd.
I can very well believe that they are either not aware that Queer theory has its roots in the apologia of pawdophilia, or that they for themselves subscribe to some form of Queer theory that sees this as historical context and rejects paedophilia due to what we know now, or even that they genuinely think paedophilia is harmless and only society‘s taboo on it is the traumatizing part as NAMBLA argues (wrongly. But anyway).

What I cannot accept and truly enrages me is that they do not want the truth about these aspects of Queer theory to be spoken. They try to shut it down, because ‚demonizing‘ and ‚not safe‘ and whatnot. When you cannot speak the factual truth about an ideology and its roots, something has gone really wrong.

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KataraJean · 25/10/2018 06:57

Serendipity - I was thinking about that Jane Clare Jones piece last night and was going to look it out, thank you for posting the link anlaf - and the lecture deepwatersolo which I will view later.

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