to wonder why some people just don't get it?

DrSue
#notalemming
Some of us have retained the ability to think for ourselves.

'Susan Cox on Queer Theory
Excerpts from a January 2017 interview with Susan Cox and Derrick Jensen about queer theory'

concludes:
"So this is what queer theory does. There are no material relations of power or exploitation or harm. There are merely these phantoms of social norms that are causing the harm, these categorizations of people, the categorization of pedophile, or the BDSM or the sadist, even.”

“This is actually a real problem, because as Mary Daly said, “We cannot fight against oppression when there are no namable oppressors.” So this is a real problem for feminism, and also for any sort of activism or revolution, political revolution, when we cannot establish class consciousness and identify the division of classes. Who are the exploiters, who are the exploited?”

“And postmodernist theory argues that we need to deconstruct the creation of the category of “other” and make it so that there is no distinction between groups, and everybody is recognized as infinitely unique individuals who are irreducible to any social category of description. But in reality you actually need to identify yourself as member of an exploited class and unite together in class interest to be able to fight any power that is oppressing you.”

“We see this throughout history, throughout any act of slavery, colonization, or oppression. The dominant group can’t subordinate another group merely through brute force. They also need to engage in this sophisticated process of dismantling the group as a group, and this is done through banning their language, their religion and destroying their way of life.”

“This is also what happens in any strategy of oppression. The oppressed group is turned into nothing more than a parody of what they once were, and a commodity, like sacred cultural symbols are turned into this exotic pattern that the dominant group will tile their bathroom with. Or religious garb will just turn into this fun costume that the dominant group will use when they’re at a costume party and play. So it reduces the people, the oppressed group to nothing more than a performance, and a parody.

And this is what it’s being advocated for in queer theory, that a woman is nothing more than a performance, she is just a citation of a norm, and anyone can put on this costume. It’s basically the obliteration of the oppressed group.”

therearesomanythingswrongwiththis.com/2018/03/22/susan-cox-on-queer-theory/

(ht Glinner)

We have to stop looking at these things personally, and every male needs to ask 'what are we doing as a class to try and change things?' or more fundamentally, 'what are we doing as a class that causes this?'

Yes!

I have just shared this article by Jessica Eaton on a running thread about the dangers of 'normalising' porn for young women.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3449288-So-depressed-by-the-Banned-Feminist-thread-on-Twitter

Its worth sharing here too:
victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/05/18/beat-the-pussy-up-the-way-we-talk-about-sex-with-women/

origninal thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3253264-Very-good-article-by-Jessica-Eaton-about-language-used-to-describe-sex

*Identifying male-pattern violence, abuse and sexual crimes against women and children is vital in order raise awareness, challenge it and improve what are in many aspects serious increases in such crimes.

It isn't just the trans-lobby that prevents male crimes being named as such.*

Absolutely.
We have to stop looking at these things personally, and every male needs to ask 'what are we doing as a class to try and change things?' or more fundamentally, 'what are we doing as a class that causes this?'

Whilst not every man is going to be violent, their attitudes might still influence those who are violent, so they can still be contributing to the problem.

In this instance, it's male violence, but there are many other instances of behaviours as a class (in both men and women, positive and negative) that we can't just wash our hands of simply because we as individuals don't believe we exhibit such behaviours).

So when I can't enter a woman's refuge - it's not because I am ME, it's because I am a male, and statistically many males hurt women. It's impossible for others to know if I am a hurter or not.
That is precisely the same with a transwoman. It's impossible to know how 'trans' they are, but it IS possible to see they have male physiology and that means they can't enter a refuge either (in my eyes).

Now some will argue that women can be violent towards other women too, and whilst that's true, it's impossible to protect against that. It IS possible to minimise risk from people with a male physiology though, and that (in my opinion) is why a transwoman needs to be classed as male for protection purposes. I don't see it as anti-trans any more than I see it as anti-male.

Woman's Place UK
Who are we?
We are a group of people from a range of backgrounds including trade unions, women’s organisations, academia and the NHS. We are united by our belief that women’s hard won rights must be defended.

What are we for?
We are against all forms of discrimination. We believe in the right of everyone to live their lives free from discrimination and harassment. Women face both endemic structural and personal inequality. This is reflected, for example, in the high levels of sexual harassment and violence against women and girls; the gender pay gap; discrimination at work. This is why sex is a protected characteristic in the Equality Act (2010) which we believe must be defended.

Our Demands

Respectful and evidence-based discussion about the impact of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act to be allowed to take place and for women’s voices to be heard.

The principle of women-only spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended.

A review of how the exemptions in the Equality Act which allow or single sex services or requirements that only a woman can apply for a job (such as in a domestic violence refuge) are being applied in practice.

Government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women-only services and spaces.

Government to consult on how self-declaration will impact upon data gathering – such as crime, employment, pay and health statistics – and monitoring of sex-based discrimination such as the gender pay gap.

womansplaceuk.org/about/

More from the Communists

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3430714-Communist-Party-policy-supports-actual-women#prettyPhoto

Yep, almost every major organisation barring the right wing media is wrong and somehow Mumsnet has become one of the few islands of sanity in the world... yessssss.

And the Communists ... those right-wing bastards

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/communists-call-protection-womens-spaces

The popularity of a view is no measure of its correctness.

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”
― Edmund Burke

Please continue to point out to fans of self ID who think they are being " progressive", that significant numbers of transsexual men and women are against self ID too.

While bearing in mind that significant numbers in that group are happy to assert that the consent of women does not apply to them.

Must we recount the many times in history when the 'few' have been correct?
Must we recall how so often the masses have gone along with the popular view, or conventional wisdom, only to be wrong?

The popularity of a view is no measure of its correctness.

In truth, it's not usually warmly received by anybody. We don't like to be treated as a 'class', especially when in the context of a negative attribute (violence for instance).

Identifying male-pattern violence, abuse and sexual crimes against women and children is vital in order raise awareness, challenge it and improve what are in many aspects serious increases in such crimes.

It isn't just the trans-lobby that prevents male crimes being named as such.

Please continue to point out to fans of self ID who think they are being " progressive", that significant numbers of transsexual men and women are against self ID too.

Significant numbers of transsexuals have also played prominant roles in changing policies, legislation, public perceptions etc

Stephen Whittle, Christine Burns, Sarah Brown, Karen Jones, India Willoughby, Paris Lees for example.

Please consider trying to influence those within the transgender communities with power. As the thread demonstrates, women with concerns have quite a lot to do already.

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

Yep, almost every major organisation barring the right wing media is wrong and somehow Mumsnet has become one of the few islands of sanity in the world... yessssss.

This is somewhat lazy thinking DrSue
Mumsnet is an open forum & this is a single board amongst many.
Mumsnet hosts a discusssion here, for which it has been under considerable & constant attack:
April 2018
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-transgender-activists-try-to-curb-free-speech-on-site-z3sr3nf6q?shareToken=b2eb62822dd26aecc0f88653978ed23a

Just as it would be foolish to dismiss a writer and their articles solely based on the newspaper or media platform that published it, so too somewhat silly to dismiss all posters' contributions on a such a large site because 'Mumsnet'

Have you read the Morning Star?
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/assault-free-speech-and-free-thought

almost every major organisation barring the right wing media is wrong

Entertaining to see Dr Sue inadvertently providing a neat example of precisely the kind of social pressure (in this case through use of the argumentum ad populum fallacy) that this thread has been discussing...

Please continue to point out to fans of self ID who think they are being " progressive", that significant numbers of transsexual men and women are against self ID too.

There is a hard-core element that doesn't want to 'get it'.

They don't want to get it, or research it or listen, because they seek a cause that will give them a licence to put on balaclavas, gather together as a tribe and be violent. Whether it's Anti-Facism or Transphobia, you'll see the same people turning up like bad pennies online or in real life.

They talk in slogans. They don't engage. They scream in your face.

I think it's a pretty logical assumption that a transwoman has male physiology, and whilst there may be aspects of a transwoman that are more feminine, they aren't completely immune to male traits.

Given that, it's not wrong to assert that there's a greater likelihood of violent behaviour. It's not a personal statement, but a class one.

The problem lies in the fact that a transwoman wants to be classed as a woman, and therefore to argue they are male (or part male) seems to offend some. Maybe a better way to express it is that although they are female (for the sake of argument), they evidently have a male physiology which is a result of male biology, ergo they at least inherit some male traits along the way, one of which is a higher tendency to be violent). However you express it, it's a fair statement, but it won't be warmly received.

In truth, it's not usually warmly received by anybody. We don't like to be treated as a 'class', especially when in the context of a negative attribute (violence for instance).

Sometimes, I think if David Attenborough was documenting us, we'd have no problem accepting that men and women have certain predispositions, and of course there's huge overlap, but there are differences 'on the whole'. We just seem to want to bury our heads in the sand or take it all too personally.

What are you afraid of, Sue? What scares you so much about women talking to each other and saying things you don't like?

DrSue, do you ever come here and think that? Come on, admit it must have crossed your mind at least once: all the brilliant women here are right and the woke world actually is talking bollocks. Keep repeating women are women, it will stick...... eventually.

Yep, almost every major organisation barring the right wing media is wrong and somehow Mumsnet has become one of the few islands of sanity in the world... yessssss.

Pink News editor, Ben Cohen's utter contempt for women was evident when he appeared on Politics Live recently.

Ben Cohen clearly has considerable influence within some political and media circles.

In the 90s I remember a friend of mine shouting from the rooftops her disgust at FGM (though it wasn't called that then)
To my shame- I "shushed" her.
I was embarrassed: it was politically very incorrect to disrespect other cultures in this way and somehow that was much more important than the wrongs of slicing off a clitoris..
That was the climate and I totally bought into it- I did not think about the women in this scenario.
The prevailing woke discourse can be so powerful; it overrides the ability or even inclination to think.
The reason that it doesn't work on me now is that I've matured.

Pink News editor, Ben Cohen's utter contempt for women was evident when he appeared on Politics Live recently.

He physically recoiled, while his facial expressions and gestures (let alone his misogynistic comments) made it quite clear what his agenda is. He is another in a position of power and influence.

He was also involved with an internet porn search engine. Go tell me that he cares about women.

Yes me too. I watched the live coverage by Prick News of the wonderful group of lesbians who commandeered the front of the march. The male reporter could barely hide his contempt, he was calling it an "anti-trans" protest.

After Ellen article this week calls out Pink News' treatment of Lesbians:
(extract)
"The mainstream media (including the ‘LGBT’ mainstream) are male-dominated (like everything else)… Even lesbian organizations and media are controlled by non-lesbians and male-money—Parent companies or advertisers that ultimately control what we can and cannot say. Mainstream media is like the creepy uncle who shows up at your lesbian dinner party, uninvited, holding a bouquet of d*cks. PinkNews has been called out on social media, time and time again, for what lesbian readers view as biased reporting, anti-lesbian sentiment and misogynistic viewpoints."

www.afterellen.com/general-news/567505-male-run-pink-news-at-odds-with-lesbian-community

When I wonder how many sterile detransitioning young people there will be fighting for compensation in the future, my sense of being on the wrong side of history abates.

Then I think of rapists in women's prisons, and then think about the rest of the tip of the iceberg before moving onto the iceberg itself and I think it's fortunate that not everyone has gone for the thought-terminating right side of history.

DrSue, do you ever come here and think that? Come on, admit it must have crossed your mind at least once: all the brilliant women here are right and the woke world actually is talking bollocks. Keep repeating women are women, it will stick...... eventually.