Debbie Hayton and Posie Parker on Matthew Wright, TalkRadio between 1pm and 2pm **Thread title edited by MNHQ**

Rowantrees, sorry, are you actually trying to say I didn't listen, at the time, to the Woman's Hour interview between Bex Stimpson [pre-recorded] and Helen Lewis? This is utterly, utterly baffling.

It goes around in circles when someone who disagrees is told off and then told surely they don't disagree that other should disagree. You are so bloody defensive.

This is ridiculous. Debate me instead of insulting. Of course me standing up for my opinion doesn't mean I don't think you shouldn't disagree. FGS.

I was aware of Debbie on Twitter quite a bit before she joined MN. I was involved in the Jonny Best thread [which seemed a bit more polite and reasonable than this one].

It is either about self ID or it isn't. If it is about Self ID then I don't see any point [except for justifying Twitter's opinion that MN's hive mind erases trans people] in repeatedly asking Debbie, who is an empathetic transwoman who is engaged in the debate [which seems rarer than hen's teeth right now] not to use the bathroom she has used for many years as part of her life as a TW.

Trans people have been using women's spaces for decades, with a mutual respect and agreement, which is exactly what Debbie and others are trying to do.

I'm nearly 50 and have never been asked or agreed to share my space with male transpeople. A few occasionally using the loo, desperate not to be outed, is not the same as demanding to use open plan changing rooms and hospital wards.

How can it be mutual respect when we can't say no.

I know Rowantrees. Because i listened to it. hmm

AdamBede Not sure if you're aware or not (don't wish to presume) but please don't feel you have to engage with any links I post. They're just potentially relevant.

Some people find them of interest, many skip over them.

I'm pretty consistant in how I post here.

You know it isn't all about you?

There are others like me reading this thread who appreciate the links to other threads and articles, otherwise things go round in circles.

Of course it is an easy pop - debbie is a transwomen who has offered herself up for debate here, I mean I am sure you are aware that most TW won't debate this at all.

Debbie has been part of discussions here (which you say you're aware of) over a long period of time.
She joined the thread which was discussing the interview on TalkRadio she was part of.
If Nick Duffy had done the same people would have raised questions about his points.
So too Posie Parker (though she sadly can't)

And read that thread too. The bloody irony of people telling me that we don't all have to have a hive mind and agree with Helen Lewis whilst seeming to object to me disagreeing here. A low point of MN debate.

I know Rowantrees. Because i listened to it.

Which is why I feel it is important that there are GC voices who support trans identities [Helen Lewis does for example] but who wish to debate the potential abuses of Self ID. But it doesn't seem to be about that at all.

recent thread discussing Helen Lewis' comments on Woman's Hour. Helen was in the same segment as Bex Stinson (Head of Trans Inclusion Stonewall) who would not take part in a live discussion with her and Jane Garvey:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3428918-Womans-Hour-Tues-20-11-18-Why-is-the-current-debate-about-sex-and-gender-so-often-called-toxic-we-hear-from-Bex-Stinson-and-helenlewis

As am I RowanTrees thanks. But not getting much reason back so far. I am getting told I am blundering on, I haven't read the thread, why have I name changed etc [because I would rather keep my posts about family and stuff separate] Of course it is an easy pop - debbie is a transwomen who has offered herself up for debate here, I mean I am sure you are aware that most TW won't debate this at all. And I think you are shooting yourself in the foot if what you actually want is all trans people to use the bathrooms of their birth sex. Then it isn't about self ID at all, but about not recognising trans identities.

Why can't we all be like Helen Lewis?

Debbie comes on here, twitter, writes articles and can talk for herself. Worth listening to and reading, adds new perspective, interesting person.

No need to follow people like sheep in a herd though.

Why name change to post this?

Absolutely MN is not a hive mind. Which is why I am allowed to object strongly to people taking an easy pop at a transwoman who has done a really difficult job of speaking from a place of reason and empathy in a toxic climate

Where is the 'easy pop'?
The vast majority of people on the thread are discussing issues raised by the interview respectfully from a place of reason. They may of course come to different conclusions.

I like both Debbie and Helen Lewis as people. But like Lang, I disagree with them on single sex spaces. I don't think gender identity is more important than women's rights and feelings. Now you can argue about it if you want, but it's not going to go anywhere. I won't be told what position I can and can't take by self important randoms.

By calling you rude?

Um, no Ereshkigal that is why i said it isn't.... a...hive...mind....

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Oh FFS - reading a thread and posting in disagreement is not blundering on. Don't be so bloody patronising and rude.

What doesn't? Are we all required to toe a party line that you and Helen Lewis set?

Absolutely MN is not a hive mind. Which is why I am allowed to object strongly to people taking an easy pop at a transwoman who has done a really difficult job of speaking from a place of reason and empathy in a toxic climate. Which is why I feel it is important that there are GC voices who support trans identities [Helen Lewis does for example] but who wish to debate the potential abuses of Self ID. But it doesn't seem to be about that at all.

as well as many of us having met with and listened to her speak at Women's meetings etc this year

Indeed. I count Debbie as a virtual friend and I like to think Debbie would say the same of me. We don't take the same position on sex segregation. So? But of course, no argument for those blundering into a thread to tell women off for speaking their minds other than to make it personal.

Yes I know MN has a name change facility. I've been involved in this debate here for about four/five years. Who do you think you are?