Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

The message feminism has for boys - "you are sick and disgusting, but if you don't abuse or oppress women, you will be tolerated #YesAllWomen"

You only need to look at the thread where the poster is asking how she manages to take her son to the toilet if he is too old to use the women's toilets.

Many posters on there saying basically he has to use the men's and tough if it's not safe. Let him learn how girls feel. Most of them saying from the age of 8 and one particularly lovely poster saying boys over the age of 6.

So little girls can be kept safe with their mum but little boys should just be left to it and if something bad happens? Oh well. Now they know what women and girls go through.

Nice!

(although I would change "the same" to "without gender expectations").

The solution is that all children, girls and boys, boys should be raised the same and encouraged and allowed to develop into their own characters as fully reaslised humans.

And that there is feminism.

All children need positive messages and positive role models.

Boys shouldn't grow up believing their future is one of being violent to women. That really isn't the message we are trying to give boys.

I do agree with you about some sections of feminism being anti men, but that isn't the section that I align myself with, and I don't think it is the loudest message out there.

NonaGrey very true. Girls hear so much crap all the time. Make privilege is being blissfully unaware of the problems a gendered society brings because a gendered society ultimately benefits them.

You all seem to be against positive message to boys then? Punish them for the crimes of their gender, right? That'll show them.

Sex not gender.

When was the last time you walked down a kids clothes aisle?

Boys clothes covered in slogans about being brave, fierce, strong.

Girls clothes covered in slogans about being pretty, perfect and princesses.

You all seem to be against positive message to boys then? Punish them for the crimes of their gender, right? That'll show them.

There was this public information campaign that tried to get children to eat more vegetables and I have therefore concluded that the people behind it don't want children to eat fruit or drink milk ever! In fact they must want to ban oranges, those juice hating fiends.

And I know that there have not been problem with violence going to far or anything at school. I know this because I have talked about it with them.

Oh yes school. Where girls are being raped and nobody from the DfE seems to give a shit. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3364173-Our-kids-were-raped-by-classmates-DfE-wont-listen

I'm pretty sure many more female children are admonished for violent behaviour than their male counterparts.

I have girls, and I do 'allow' rough play, but also have a strict "No hitting" policy. Which covers all violent action. And it's always age appropriate. Small children are less familiar with where the boundaries lie, so need more reinforcement about what is and isn't acceptable behaviour.

I don't think berating violence is a good indicator of boys not being allowed to be boys.

Kindness and compassion are great. But every child has to learn to look after themselfes, get their shit together, stand up for themselves and others, be responsible. Kindness and compassion and being "nice" alone just makes you into a doormat.

Hence the need for feminism.

Women grew up having their aggression stamped out, not allowed to play fight, expected to step aside and not stand up for themselves. Told that being kind and compassionate was the ideal for them. ie. Women were groomed by society into being doormats, and feminism is us learning to stand up for ourselves.

Interesting that in your OP you said that the problem with feminism was that it told women they were victims, but now you've come full circle and told us that the traditional way to raise women creates doormats, and you don't think that it's right that boys should be subjected to that.

Tbh I read the FT every morning and often I play a game which goes ‘how many pages of pictures of powerful people (politicians, world leaders, CEOs of global businesses) before there is a picture of a woman?!’

You would be horrified sometimes at how far you can get. Not always, obviously, but OFTEN. Honestly, once I thought that if you were an alien reading the papers you would come away thinking that the world was inhabited by one sex.

Women are still dramatically absent from the upper echelons of power. They do not look up and see a natural chain of command/well-established old girl’s club waiting to haul them up and welcome them in.

Covering your ears and saying "la la la don't talk about it, NAMALT" gets no one no where.

There was an amazing educational program in I think Nigeria a country that had/has an extremely high rate of rapes, young girls had virtually all experienced or knew a girl who had experienced rape.

Feminists helped put in place a program in schools teaching consent to boys, and discussion of rape.

It works now to massively reduce the instances of rape. Boys are happier. They are taught to be the protector of their female siblings and friends and they feel better in themselves.

I know this is an extreme and specific example but it does go to show feminists are helping boys and men and girls through tackling toxic masculinity directly not pretending it doesn't happen, in case a few boys are made to feel uncomfortable.

I'll try to find the link.

Feminists, eh? What are they like? Why oh why don't they focus more of their energy on boosting the self esteem of boys when that's clearly what a movement the name of which clearly references female humans should be about.

Gosh, it's like they've totally forgotten how precious femininity is...

He isn’t “complicit too” he’s equally responsible.

You are implying that he’s helpless in the face of her poor choices.

He’s not.

He’s their father. He can speak up, give input, give balance, challenge his wife if he thinks she’s wrong.

That’s his responsibility.

So either he agrees with her and they are united in their parenting.

Or he’s weak and devolving his responsibility to her.

Either way OP a weekend snapshot of parenting doesn’t give you anywhere close to the whole story,

She may have very good reasons for stamping on their rough play. Perhaps experience has taught her that it descends very quickly into actual violence and physical damage and blood. Perhaps there have been problems at school with rough play crossing the line. Perhaps one of the boys uses rough play to subtly intimidate the other. A weekend is not long enough to know.

There is no one right way to raise a child. There is only the right way to raise your own child.

Imagine how good it would be if people were treated as unique individuals not as members of a class.

Yes, imagine not being here blaming a whole class of feminists and, instead, challenging individual men on their behaviour.

That would be great, thanks.