Stella O'Malley, Trans Kids: It's Time To Talk

Sadly I would recognize what you describe as a form of conversion therapy but that isn't what the transactivists of today call conversion therapy. They suggest that letting a girl express herself as she wishes and help her come to terms with her body as it is, or as it is changing is conversion therapy. The tunnel vision is staggering.

Florabunting, affirmation has not always been the policy. In the 50s/60s/ 70s the NHS used what would now be called conversion therapy.

Hormones were used to boost natal sex not alter it. Psychotherapy and suggestions to go away and get married and have kids were common (which likely led to some of the distressing cases in the really sad trans widows thread here that all should read). And electro convulsive therapy was attempted to shock the brain into compliance.

Affirmation was always a last resort and about 90% of those saying they were transsexual were not so diagnosed and deterred from an NHS transition path way.

Seeing things from the 21st century perspective misses that dangerous shifts have occurred in recent decades.

A move away from the idea that this is not obviously a serious medical problem that needs extensive psychiatric assessment to find out why someone argues they are the wrong sex whilst knowing their true biology.

As a transsexual this is obvious and cases need fully investigating not simply accepted as true because.

Also transition is now the first option instead of the very last resort after other means have failed.

We have moved further and further away from psychiatric assessment and consideration of various possible causes and doctors having to be dragged kicking and screaming to transition as the only remaining option.

I do not think it is a coincidence that 'old school transsexuals' were generally aware of the importance of boundaries, that nobody changes sex and have assimilated into society easily and rarely claimed transophobia.

Whereas today all that has changed.

The erosion of therapy and making transition easy and not hard to get approved and extensive effort to eliminate and try to treat other possibilities that might lead to gender non conformity has coincided with the activism we are seeing now.

And which is demanding the removal of final barriers with government approval.

This process was meant to be hard. It should never be easy. It is madness to turn it into a choice.

That attitude within government has led to the appalling laxity of consideration over the consequences for children.

We cannot simply remove all obstacles or not look for causes that might be triggering psychological or medical conditions.

Anybody viewing this objectively can see that.

Yet it is exactly what we are doing.

Yes.

Well that's rather the essence of the difficulty here, isn't it Kay? Regardless of the wider ideological issues involved in the transgender movement and notions of femininity etc. there is a hugely important case to be made that there needs to be more research and that simply 'affirming' someone's beliefs about themselves is unhelpful when they are an adult, never mind when they are a child displaying behaviour and beliefs that could indicate much deeper problems.

Thingybob 2; the psychiatric team at such as the Charing Cross Gender Clinic seem to be pretty good at weeding people out. Most do not go on to hormones and surgery, and some are enraged to find that hey are not allowed to. They never see the reason why, but others often do. Having a skilled team, and making sure there is a wait for treatment , and so on, has it's advantages.

But despite that, I still agree with your post. Many trans people get angry if anyone "doubts" any other "trans identifying" person. So you are spot on.

How is the experience of a middle aged, male born transitioner in any way relevant to the experience of gender questioning teenage girl?

For the middle aged transwoman we are supposed to accept that they are a woman and the suggestion that they might have to undergo some sort of medical assessment is regarded as hate speech.

For children there is a demand that they should be medicated right away.

Either transgender people need to physically transition, or they don't. And if adults don't want a medicalised route, why force it on children?

Thingybob; good stuff.

One thing that is crystal clear to me is that trans people are not one homogeneous group. Some are born male and others female, some are teenagers whilst others are middle aged, some are autistic others neurotypical, some have other mental health problems but others don't, some seem to have a fear of growing up and others appear to have a sexual motivation for change, etc etc

In short a really diverse group so why are they all treated in a similar manner ie the affirmation approach and why do individual members of that group feel they can speak for them all. How is the experience of a middle aged, male born transitioner in any way relevant to the experience of gender questioning teenage girl?

How much, and how one distinguishes the genuine/ permanent from the assumed/ temporary, I don't know.

I assume with high quality research and MH support and cracking down on the terrorists who are trying to stop both of these.

Rowantrees post ( above) strikes chords with me. In a career that brought me into contact with many young people who did not quite fit in anywhere, socially and/or physically, we did see a tendency for then ( and their parents) to seize on any apparent explanation for the difficulties.

I feel quite sure that some of this is going on. How much, and how one distinguishes the genuine/ permanent from the assumed/ temporary, I don't know.

I also wondered whether the popularity of these young trans men is because they represent a lovely gentle safe female version of a young man.

The teacher who whistleblew and was quoted in the Mail on Sunday commented:
(extract)
"Carol says transgender pupils at her school sometimes adopt the names of trans YouTubers who have found fame online.

There have been times when a group of pupils who are identifying as boys all use the same name.

Some internet celebrities have been accused of influencing younger children to think they are transgender when they are not.

In one video, popular star Alex Bertie tells a young person who said they were ‘confused’ and ‘didn’t feel trans enough’ that they were ‘repressing’ their transgender identity.

Carol believes that many of the girls who come out as transgender are, in fact, lesbian. They date other girls who are both trans and non-trans, she reveals.

‘From talking to these girls, the thought of being a heterosexual female is terrifying for them, but being known as a lesbian is also unpalatable, so they become transgender.

I think as lesbians they would face more bullying but as transgender children they almost become popular.’

The attraction, she says, is that by becoming trans these socially awkward children who have struggled to find acceptance suddenly see their popularity rocket.

‘They have girls flocking around them like handmaidens because they look like pretty little boys,’ she says.

‘They mirror teenage fantasies, resembling popstars like Justin Bieber. These trans kids actually become quite powerful in the school.’

The teacher said she felt compelled to speak out to protect pupils, many of whom she believes could already be taking the powerful drugs

She adds that one of the most worrying ways these pupils exercise their newfound power is by influencing younger children, ‘who are nearly always autistic’, to think they, too, are transgender, which reminds her of grooming.

Carol told of how distressed children would come to her and say they are trans, explaining to her: ‘I was feeling very lost, but [an older transgender student] found me crying in the corridor and helped me understand who I truly am.’ (continues)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6401593/Whistleblower-teacher-makes-shocking-claim-autistic.html

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3426753-Tomorrows-Mail-on-Sunday-Front-Page

Thank you Stella and Channel 4 for making the programme. It explored the issues really well in a sensitive humane way. I think it is a good point about the transmen being very sensitive and being attractive to young women -I think they are similar in some ways to teen idols.

I would welcome further programmes on different issues . But also a follow up on the featured individuals in 2 or so years time would be very interesting to see how they have progressed.

I also wondered whether the popularity of these young trans men is because they represent a lovely gentle safe female version of a young man.

This rings true. Just like a gay male friend.

It doesn't really make any odds if a doctor is well meaning. If their practice is causing harm to anyone, but especially the already vulnerable, that doctor is behaving indefensibly.

Neurotrasher; good point about autism/ medication.

As I've just said on the Trans Windows thread. I've only watched half of this so far, and as a Trans Widow, it actually made me feel grateful that my ex turned into a frothing TRA. It made it much easier to leave than if he'd been earnestly gender critical.

If he'd have been understanding, would I have felt I had to stay and be miserable?

(Sorry I need to read ready of thread but not much time today.)

Further to my post last night

(So with rudimentary science, one can surmise the amygdala remains in control for longer while blocked, the frontal cortex remains undeveloped. Fuck knows what happens when cross sex hormones happen then.)

I've also just thought about the autistic brain. (I teach children with autism and have done a number of courses). It's organised differently, there are definite differences in how different areas coordinate or dominate or communicate to each other (less communication generally, less able to bring ideas together and see the bigger picture.) obviously this is an extremely sweeping statement and probably more pertinent to those whose autism is very disabling in terms of communication/ accessing the world around them. But I'm pretty sure hormone blockers aren't a going to in any way help this situation either.

That's a good point, M-E. Trans men I have met have invariably been exactly as you describe. I'd not thought of that, only of the hard road they often have to walk to be accepted by men.

I was thinking about this program and why girls are so keen to transition at this age. I wondered whether the popularity they gain as shown by these lovely transman and their YouTube success is very tempting for lonely teenage girls.

I also wondered whether the popularity of these young trans men is because they represent a lovely gentle safe female version of a young man. I think they would be so much more accessible to young girls precisely because they are female. Young teenage lads cannot understand or empathize with teenage girls in the same way. They all seem so nice and friendly and gentle and well balanced but then women are....

Exactly.

And for some, adult, clients, who have sorted their shit out, a compassionate doctor and no waiting times will be a good thing.

I|f Webberley had stuck to prescribing for adults I doubt she'd have found herself in so much trouble. For adults who might otherwise get the drugs they want from the internet, she was probably a good option. But giving them to children tends to be seen in a different light.

Surely, if anyone is set on going down some life changing path, a thorough exploration of their motivations and expectations with a professional psychotherapist will be a good thing, if for no other reason than to manage the transition better?

The point made earlier this week by Bob Withers (psychotherapist) in articles and interviews:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3427836-Bob-Withers-on-GMB-and-This-Morning-today

'In line with self-identification of gender, I firmly advocate informed consent and individualised care.' ~ Webberley

This is what I don't get about this whole 'affirmative care' approach of self-ID that informed consent boils down to: Surely, if anyone is set on going down some life changing path, a thorough exploration of their motivations and expectations with a professional psychotherapist will be a good thing, if for no other reason than to manage the transition better?

Video, 'How to Get Hormones in 3-4 weeks' praise for how Dr Webberley and GenderGP enabled this with details of referral & assessment process as well as fees etc:

curvetube.com/How_to_get_hormones_in_3-4_weeks_MtF_&_FtM~UK_GenderGP/r6nDDZabKJQ.video