Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

Having a GRC or surgery is an indication of genuine gender dysphoria.

Not an indication of respect for women, boundaries, consent. Or indeed, property, driving regulations, or any other law.

It's completely illogical to use it as any kind of criteria other than you (probably but not definitely) have gender dysphoria.

If the violence data isn’t from the U.K. after 2004 it won’t relate to a U.K. concept of a GRC.

So early, bespin have I got it you right ( it’s a long thread with many turns)

Transwoemn with a grc and full surgery you think should be generally allowed to access single sex spaces? And the grc should remain a strongly gatekeeper process as part of this?

I guess a while back I would have gone along with that, but now I worry about the practicality of that position. How can I differentiate between an “acceptable” transwoman and any other kind? Given the other outnumber the “acceptable” by a large majority it seems I must accept a lot of false positives if the true positives are to be allowed in unhindered?

Further, the data that suggests transwomen have Male violence pattens makes me think my original acceptance was flawed. However, i wonder if the violence data is based solely on grc holders or if it is dominated by self id trans

you all keep using it simply because you don't have anything else to base your argument on.

What argument? How is any of it relevant anyway given that there is no agreed objective definition of ‘trans’?

you all keep using it simply because you don't have anything else to base your argument on.

Ugh. It's such a fucking giveaway.

excellent back to the study that does not show what you keep saying it does and as been shown by its author to not be used in the way you all keep using it simply because you don't have anything else to base your argument on.

You're kidding, right? What, exactly would you like women's boundaries and consent to be based on?

Because it is you who is demanding that no isn't enough. You who is demanding we have to have some other reason. You who is demanding that reality, science, biology and statistics aren't enough.

My 'argument', as you so like to call it, is NO.

You making it necessary for women to spend time they don't have, coming up with reasons to satisfy, and then dismissing them, is just disgraceful.

Leave women alone.

Nobody is committing a crime by not being ‘proper trans’ so I’m not sure how it relates to pedophilia or drunk driving.

Being a man isn’t a crime either.

Trying to argue that trans women are women seems like a dead end given that most of the time it doesn’t matter whether somebody is male or female and it is really difficult to identify what the two groups have in common.

Why not just accept that all people have rights because they are human, but some have slightly different needs in specific situations.

It seems like fighting to use a disabled loo so that I can use a disabled loo rather than asking for more baby changing facilities so that it’s easier to go swimming with children.

Once someone is on hormone therapy Their levels of testosterone drop to less than half that of a man. Still more than the average woman, but far less than a man.
Testostorone doesn’t account for everything, as I say, some people are bad and some are not.

It’s irrelevant whether testosterone decreases. Even at half the normal amount for men it’s still ten times the normal amount for women.

In any case, aggression isn’t about the amount of free testosterone in the system.

Testosterone aids in the learning of aggression.

Take that testosterone away and you still have the learned behaviour, just as you still have the greater musculature, the greater bone density, the greater lung capacity, etc.

Imperial China had armies of eunuchs. They didn’t sit around swapping knitting patterns.

Ooh, hi Bespin. Like you, I'm late to the thread.

Haven't had a chance to read right through. But there seems to have been a lot of effort by a lot of women to discuss and debate the points here.

What do you think about the blog that spanna posted originally (they don't seem to have been back since, but never mind). Shall we get the thread back on track?

(I'd say 'lol' like you, but right now, women's rights, dignity, privacy and single sex spaces don't feel much like a 'lol'. Maybe you'd like to talk to some of us about why it's a 'lol'?)

Oh no, my mistake, the other one can punctuate. As you were.

Did you name change by accident there Bespin?

excellent back to the study that does not show what you keep saying it does and as been shown by its author to not be used in the way you all keep using it simply because you don't have anything else to base your argument on. when people question your view. hope everyone is having fun repeating the same arguments we have had a 100 times before lol

The author has said themselves to not use the study to back this whole claim of ‘transwoman commit at the same rate as men’ and says her study has been misinterpreted repeatadly to support this.

But clearly they do commit crime at the same rate as men. I don't think she would have the nerve to refute that, because it's an extraordinary claim.

You of course can prove they don't?

Can you evidence that?

It is extremally unlikely that you would be accepted for a GRC if you are not taking hormones.

MsMcWoodle I’m not asking for anything to change, I’m against self ID. I am simply happy with the current rules under holding a GRC being able to access our toilet and changing rooms.

I think the onus is on those who want things to change to provide proof that this will not be to women's detriment.
This has not been done.
Single sex spaces were created for a reason. You have not shown that this reason no longer exists.
The testosterone argument is not conclusive and, anyway, falls down with self-id.

The author has said themselves to not use the study to back this whole claim of ‘transwoman commit at the same rate as men’

I'm pretty certain she said she couldn't specify what crime, because she didn't categorise the different crimes. Just used the overall term 'crime'.

Testostorone doesn’t account for everything,

And has got absolutely nothing to do with the criteria needed to get a GRC? Which is how you want to categorise people.

I don’t agree with twisting any statistic or fact to fit your narrative. The author has said themselves to not use the study to back this whole claim of ‘transwoman commit at the same rate as men’ and says her study has been misinterpreted repeatadly to support this.

How do you know if someone is proper trans
I believe you should be able to ask for a GRC, if not then you’ve just got to rely on the law doing it’s job. How do you know your train driver isn’t drunk? That your doctor isn’t a pedophile? That your child’s teacher isn’t grooming them? You just don’t. But if guidelines state that someone holding a GRC can use the facilities of their desired sex, then I support that. There is no real way of policing it. If you’re uncomfortable, question them, if you can’t do that - report them. I don’t think it’s a regular occurrence in RL anyway.

what is a genuine trans

Someone who has lived as their desired sex for more than 2 years, has been diagnosed as having gender dysphoria and intends to live as that sex for the rest of their lives.

What makes them less dangerous

Personally I don’t think anything can just make someone ‘less dangerous’ as such, it’s the nature vs nurture. You’re either born bad or something’s happened to you to make you bad. Testostorone increases muscle mass and aggression, thus explaining partly why men account for the majority of crimes and are the more dangerous sex as a class. Even woman in prison are documented as having higher levels of testosterone than the average woman.
Once someone is on hormone therapy Their levels of testosterone drop to less than half that of a man. Still more than the average woman, but far less than a man.
Testostorone doesn’t account for everything, as I say, some people are bad and some are not.

My point was not homophobic, responding with ‘you could say that about lesbians if you want to use that arguement’ type statement in response to thinking transwoman are interested in your body.
Well, I personally don't think transexual women would be particularly interested in my body.

I think the current political climate means that predatory men who are interested in anything to do with womens private habits will find it easier to access women by saying they are trans. They might want to ogle me. Or they might want to wank while listening to me piss. Or they might want to plant a camera. Or they might just get off on making women uncomfortable. Who knows, but why on earth are we making it easier for them?

A couple more bits from the link posted by UpstartCrow

Regarding criminality there are only results from either both trans women and trans men and displayed for the whole period 1973-2003 and for the periods of 1973-1988 and the 1989-2003. If one is only intrested in transwomen data is only available for the whole period. For only assigned med who had transition 1973-2003 they had committed more crimes than cis women and more violent crime than cis women.

So over the whole period, 1973-2003, transwomen committed more crimes and more violent crimes than women. They did not separate the data into transwomen and transmen for the two sub-periods of 1973-1988 and 1989-2003.

So after 1989 the transgender men and women together did not differ from cis gender men and women regarding comitting any crime or violent crime. This means that the trana population was not more criminal then the cis population after 1989.

After 1989, the cohort of transwomen and transmen were no different in terms of criminal activity than a control group of men and women.

And given it’s one that’s often trotted out on here, I’d have thought you’d all looked into it more.

We have, here is one thread where it was discussed.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3186729-Does-it-worry-you-that-six-WOMEN-are-convicted-of-rape

I know that the Swedish study gets a lot of controversy, because, I believe the author has been misinterpreted.

But I would like to know how you have misinterpreted Nic Williams' statistics. Because, to me, they are irrefutable.

They are also replicated by a Californian study into transwomen in prison.

Plus Transcrime Uk and This Never Happens.

It's difficult to believe how people can remain in denial over this.

The second cohort included women