Is this an about-face from The Guardian?

redtoothbrush thanks for posting that stuff about the media conference. Very interesting and important.

kitty yes it is salutary to remember how social media like Twitter is working against freedom of expression and open democracy.

The fuckers in Scotland completely ignored the consultation too - it was just a charade of democratic process.

This. We already lost this here.

I am amazed how many people I am blocked by on Twitter, despite never tweeting on that account. They must do it on likes or who you follow, in essence they block us merely for acknowledging opinions they don't like which is utterly ridiculous and somewhat piteous.

I’m thankful that women have been able to speak on mumsnet even if at times it seems they were censored

Yes, me too.
I've been on here long enough to remember the SWMNBN thing and I think Mumsnet has done extremely well to avoid things going that way wrt anyone else. I don't always like the decisions they make (specially when it's me that gets deleted, lol) but I recognise that they have a line to walk.
Make no mistake, if Mumsnet were trying to shut down the gender critical conversation, they could have done so long ago and very effectively, but they didn't, which is why we are having these conversations publicly here instead of elsewhere on the internet. If they were passionate supporters of genderism they would never have allowed Mumsnet to become the gender critical recruiting field that it is.
Yes it is damned annoying not being allowed to use male pronouns for men but MNHQ are the ones whose wealth, careers, reputation and safety are put on the line by the language we use and if they reckon that is what will keep us safe to go on talking, they probably have a reason for that. We can find ways to say what we want to say and avoid lying while staying in those guidelines, it takes a bit of effort but it's not impossible.

What heresy said.

And I love her username.

Red
Thank you for this,a flicker of hope......

Arseface
I am confused,someone in journalism ,only just having worked out what the issues are for the safety of women and girls doesn't make sense tbh.

I recall a tweet some time ago saying the columnist you refer to is 'respected by all' and I had a jolly good laugh for about an hour afterwards.

It's not just that the Guardian missed the story. They actively silenced women trying to point it out to them, quickly and comprehensively deleting ANY comments suggesting women had a stake in this debate.

This.

Arseface - my remarks were general, not aimed at you.

Make no mistake about this; To save democracy we must save journalism. To save journalism, newspapers and broadcast media have to do more than parrot lobby groups. They have to drill down into areas of public interest and concern.

This. Lisa Muggeridge sometimes remarks upon the large salaries paid to the elite commentariat such as Owen Jones and Polly Toynbee while paltry sums are paid for data-driven and/or investigative journalism.

The chattering classes in the UK have a lot to answer for.

BTW, there's a certain columnist at the Guardian who should be sweating at what's coming out out that press conference. It suggests that they are now potentially 'on the wrong side of history' in the sense that opinion columns might well fall from favour and have only a limited shelf life as the fashionable opinionist.

No yet there with him, but long term what's the Guardians model? Does he fit into it?

Best get writing another book whilst you still can and you are still relevant mate.

@pennydrew. Yes I’m thankful. What’s wrong with saying that? I wouldn’t have known otherwise, so yes I’m thankful that mumsnet has filled the information gap for me.

Just caught up.

Can I reiterate that, while I work for one of the organisations cited upthread (not the Guardian ) my specialty is completely removed from this issue.

I consider myself a feminist but in this regard, I am simply a layperson, who learned about this issue mainly from these boards and links posted here and on Twitter.

LangClegg
Perhaps I expressed it clumsily. I meant that the activists used our natural desire to help genuinely dysmorphic individuals (transsexuals) to shoehorn in their ridiculous dogma. A dogma that actually does not help genuinely suffering individuals.

Hell
I think it was a combination of stories about women’s changing rooms in shops frequented by very young girls, organisations like the guides tying themselves in knots to avoid being transphobic, Karen White and the dawning realisation that the claims of harassment and bullying by activists are true.

Sadly, I’m guessing that intimidation and violence towards ordinary women, expressing urgent, valid concerns had no impact.
Now that journalists are seeing MPs and their own colleagues on the receiving end, it’s only a matter of time.

I agree that there has been a staggering amount of lazy, misogynistic stereotyping passed off as reporting on this issue.

'And isn't it interesting that The Times, is currently the most trusted media group in the Uk. The BBC has recently suffered a MASSIVE decline in its trust rating. I suspect the Guardian is also having an issue with this.'

Yes, very interesting. The Times feels like a serious newspaper to me these days in a way that the others don't but I thought that was just because I'm gender critical. Clearly it's more widely felt.

Thanks to whoever mentioned blocking the Guardian. No clicks from me now either.

Off topic, but very much on topic at the same time.

Today there seems to be a big press summit going on, which is looking at the state of journalism.

Make no mistake about this; To save democracy we must save journalism. To save journalism, newspapers and broadcast media have to do more than parrot lobby groups. They have to drill down into areas of public interest and concern.

So lets start with the first thing of interest this morning:

Press Gazette @pressgazette
Reuters Institute of Journalism's Nic Newman: "We have reached a low point in the quality of news ... this is about the difference between journalism and stuff on the internet." #journosummit18

Oh god yes. Who would like to argue against that one on FWR??

Anyone?

pressgazette.co.uk/news-uk-chief-attacks-bbc-for-chasing-online-traffic-and-straying-from-editorial-remit/
News UK chief attacks BBC for 'chasing online traffic' and 'straying' from editorial remit

News UK chief David Dinsmore launched an attack on the BBC for “directly challenging core tabloid journalism” as he opened Press Gazette’s Digital Journalism Summit this morning.

Dinsmore, chief operating officer at the Sun and Times owner, claimed the BBC’s editorial remit has “strayed a long way from what makes it onto the ten o’clock news”.

He said the BBC was really the “British Publishing Corporation – because broadcasting only seems to be one of the any things it does these days”.

The News Media Association chairman and former Sun editor said the BBC must reconsider how it measures its success because “popularity isn’t the right bar”.

He questioned whether writing 250 words “off the back of a tweet by Piers Morgan” was something the BBC should be doing, and criticised it for “chasing clicks by publishing populist content” about Love Island and, more recently, the so-called Strictly snog.

“The BBC has become Britain’s largest publisher and it competes directly with all of the news publishing industry,” he said.

“They are chasing online traffic by publishing popular news content which bares no resemblance to the BBC’s charter commitments and they are challenging subscription websites by offering commentary, analysis and long-form journalism.

“Vitally, by offering all of this for free, they are reducing the leverage of commercial publishers to challenge the platforms to offer a fair value for our content.”

Dinsmore added that, if commercial publishers had the same vast resources, the ability to publish everything for free, and the SEO strength to always rise to the top of Google, there would be a level playing field.

“But we don’t,” he said. “We have to make our journalism pay.”

Dinsmore urged the BBC to return to its “core public purpose of serving impartial news and content that is not well-served by the commercial sector”.

He added that closer attention should be paid to the BBC’s output and how licence fee money is being spent.

Click Bait journalism is not journalism and its harming all journalism when the BBC engages in it.

And isn't it interesting that The Times, is currently the most trusted media group in the Uk. The BBC has recently suffered a MASSIVE decline in its trust rating. I suspect the Guardian is also having an issue with this.

The Trans Issue is really showing up the problem in a BIG way. It is the perfect example of it.

Dominic Ponsford @Domponsford
David Dinsmore ' What makes people poo in public is not public interest journalism' - David Dinsmore @newsuk @pressgazette #journosummit18 - 'BBC must return to core public interest purpose'

And its interesting in how the public are responding to 'serious' journalism in a positive way, on this issue. How many MNetters have taken out Times subscriptions and Spectator subscriptions lately? Its paying.

Also coming out of the conference:

Becky Bocchetti @etctrainer
Who actually pays for news, then? ‘Younger audiences actually more willing to pay’ for news services than older audiences. . Why? Seems to be off the back of expecting to pay for @Netflix, @Spotify etc quality subscriptions. #journosummit18

Well thats an interesting one. Young people are happy to pay for online content. So click bait isn't necessarily THE thing going forward.

Press Gazette @pressgazette
“The Internet is no longer seen as some separate place where things aren’t paid for as in the real world.”

NewsworksUK @newsworksuk
We are seeing a rise and rise of subscription news; publishers are building fluid models with various options including premium, registered and micro subscribers says @DouglasMcCabe @EndersAnalysis #journosummit18

Press Gazette @pressgazette
“When will the platforms recognise the cost of quality journalism?” asks Sun digital editor Keith Poole. #journosummit18

The Sun’s Poole adds: “Data is a powerful tool in online journalism, but we have editors informed by print data not led by it... We’re a team of human algorithms if you like.” #journosummit18

So the importance a story, isn't just about the clicks. Its about the reaction to the story in addition to the algorithms.

Press Gazette @pressgazette
Luke Lewis of iNews: It’s not really been our experience that “Facebook traffic boom” is over. He also notes strength of news aggregators bringing traffic - big part of audience growth is figuring out those platforms and what works. #journosummit18

I am a great believer in the value of the BBC as a news source that is available to all, because if you make news only available to those who can afford it, you create both information poverty and create a void into which conspiracy theory and fake news can and will dominate. But yes you also need to properly fund good journalism.

I find the timing of the Guardian's about face, rather interesting in light of all this.

It very much suggests there are issues with the Guardian model - I note that the guardian has been well recieved over the Cadwalladar / Facebook revealations and this is where they have been getting a lot of praise and I suspect clicks and sales. You know, the heavy stuff, not the opinion stuff.

Press Gazette @pressgazette
Sarah Marshall, head of audience growth at Vogue asks editors globally to create audience "growth plans" including evergreen which is "really big for the Vogues"and planning around long-forms "which are what drive loyalty". #journosummit18

Hmm, the trans issue as a brand driver is not an ideal thing to build a long term loyalty base around. Its an area which alienates a core part of the guardian's natural base. The newspaper needs to have a broader appeal and work on its loyalty and trust issues.

Press Gazette @pressgazette
Emotive words and big numbers can help grab clicks to push content up the search results rankings. Longer, more in-depth content "definitely ranks better" but it isn't just about word-length, Luke Lewis, head of audience dev at iNews tells PG's #journosummit18

Wow. Thats unexpected...

This is ongoing, but I've got to nip out. If there is anything else interesting I'll stick it up.

This is HUGELY important, and significant imo.

Me too, Nothing (the email change, I mean). Not that it'll help if they let another dodgy intern loose on the data.

Yes I am.

It would have been much easier for them to shut it down.

It would not have harmed their business IMO.

And justine (who has been swatted in the past by MRAs lets not forget) has not done that. And she is a PUBLIC face >>

I chanaged my email address on here to a brand new one in case they got hacked. I have NEVER mentioned this at work or to most of my friends. I can't imagine the abuse that she has got that I am avoiding even a tiny part of at all costs. I'm a wuss. She doesn't need this grief and could have avoided it.

Yes I am grateful.

I’m thankful that women have been able to speak on mumsnet even if at times it seems they were censored

You’re thankful women are allowed to speak at all? On a forum set up for Mums? Even though they’re deciding what we can say? Supporting an ideology to the extent they are determining the language we use here?

No, I’m not thankful. That’s what Mumsnet was set up for. No other issue here is regulated this way. It’s insulting.

Same here. If wasn’t for mumsnet I wouldn’t have known
Then I have gone about peaking plenty peopke
Seems ike no one really has heard
But not now
Ppl are really sick of it now and fed up with it being pushed everywhere
I even hear guys now saying to each other as insults
Suck my lady dick

It’s not just that the Guardian missed the story. They actively silenced women trying to point it out to them, quickly and comprehensively deleting ANY comments suggesting women had a stake in this debate.

Yes, yes they did.

And, perhaps, are now belatedly realising that they have spent years giving a big old FUCK YOU to the actual people who might keep their trust-supported, haemorrhaging-money newspaper afloat.

I really am their paying demographic - left of centre, social conscience, all that. But, more to the point, I'm a woman, part of the group that commands 80% of UK household expenditure. I'm also that haggard old boot this ageist movement likes to mock, so I've paid off my mortgage and my children are earning their own money. I have disposable income, unlike the Patreon and GoFundMe grifters. And because I'm left of centre with a social conscience, I set aside a proportion of money to spend on good causes or because it's the right thing to do.

I am the sort of person that would pay a fiver a month to help the Guardian stay afloat.

If only they had spent the last few years not actively working against me.

Too late, Kath Viner, too late. You'll not be getting a penny from me. And as few clicks as possible too, because why should I encourage advertisers to use you?

I’m thankful that women have been able to speak on mumsnet even if at times it seems they were censored.

If it wasn’t for mumsnet then I would be uninformed. I’m not on Twitter, have deleted Facebook, read the guardian and always thought the BBC would keep me informed, naive or what.

I peak-transed because of mumsnet and have successfully peak-transed others irl including my DH. All due to the resources on mumsnet.

So I take the other view, they could easily have shut all this down for an easy life and TBH it proably wouldn't have dented their traffic too much.

I disagree. The traffic to this single board increased twelve fold in a year. I imagine it's much higher again by now. IMO this is a big factor in why this board and this conversation is still happening here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3302495-This-is-how-traffic-to-the-feminism-board-has-increased

It's still just about the only public place that it can be discussed at all though -

They must have been and still be under terrible pressure to shut it all down and they don't, their advertisers will be under constant pressure to withdraw etc etc and the personal threats towards Justine & family are I suspect v awful.

So I take the other view, they could easily have shut all this down for an easy life and TBH it proably wouldn't have dented their traffic too much.

I agree with the editorial. I think this is push back against the stifling of the debate by TRAs. I hope this will open up a more nuanced discussion and allow GC voices to be heard, and the distinction between gender and sex in law to be defined, as well as sex-segregated sexes to be respected.

Hear hear @hereseyandwitchcraft. Very well said.