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Original poster

New blog from Rosa Freedman and Rosemary Auchmuty

56 replies

SusanBunch · 05/10/2018 15:33

theconversation.com/what-would-changes-to-the-gender-recognition-act-mean-two-legal-views-103204

See above link. Rosa and Rosemary present a GC view and Alex Sharpe presents a TWAW view. A lot of Alex’s argument seems to be that women are overreacting by not wanting to be around male bodies. Very much ‘nothing here to see’ tone.

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Ereshkigal · 06/10/2018 12:35

I've not seen it stated before that violent women or women who have committed sex offences (cunty women) should be locked in with the women WTF are they on?

This is actual Prison Service policy. They wouldn't be with the men though, as Alex is implying. Nor would males with GRCs.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 06/10/2018 12:33

Ereshkigal - I've seen the "women do it too so why shouldn't TW rapists be in with the women - which is obviously as you say highly disingenuous.

I've not seen it stated before that violent women or women who have committed sex offences (cunty women) should be locked in with the women WTF are they on?

This comes naturally if you believe that sex is immaterial, gender is all, you believe strongly in sexist stereotypes. A person with a cunt who commits crimes associated with masculinity / male behaviour is really a man and needs to be in the mens prison.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 06/10/2018 12:29

".If a man were to swear in front of an official of the court that he is female and intends to live as a female for the remainder of his life - and then is found to have sworn that oath falsely and goes on to commit an assault (either sexual or physical) in a female only space then her will face prosecution not only for the the assault, but also for the false declaration"

^^ comment.

If it's about internal gender id then how can anyone ever claim let alone prove that a person gave a "false oath" on this matter.

They go on to say the usual crass thing that because it is possible for men to access women's and girl's spaces at the moment by eg pretending to be a janitor, then all men should be allowed in freely.

Of course a "janitor" with a sign on the door saying "male janitor working" can be challenged, if he's sidling up to people or whatever then will be reported, he can be asked to leave. Anyone else you have to assume they are in the right place and not challenge.

There is just an absolute disregard for women's experience with creepy men and womens and girls discomfort. Because penis people must have whatever they want, all the time. Now they want to come in our facilities - and govts, womens orgs, everythign is just saying "Yes OK then that's fine".

It's mind boggling.

Ereshkigal · 06/10/2018 11:21

^WTAF have I misunderstood that?
This person wants violent / sex offending cunty people locked in prison with men?^

It's another disingenuous argument these people make when prison safeguarding comes up. In the prison guidelines there is provision for any female inmate too dangerous to be kept in the female estate to be kept in the male estate. So they say that could also be the case with MTF trans who have a GRC and are legally "female". However whether a woman or a male with GRC they would have to be kept in a female section, not the general population.

In actual fact none of the arguably most dangerous women prisoners such as serial killer Joanna Dennehy are housed outside the female estate, so that situation hasn't arisen.

Ereshkigal · 06/10/2018 11:15

How can you logically argue both positions? On one hand noting all the constant sexual harassment and violence and female underrepresentation and on the other saying that males have a crate blanche to enter female spaces.

YY. And you're right, when this is pointed out they block or call you "unkind" and deflect to how oppressed trans people are. The cognitive dissonance is difficult.

TimeLady · 06/10/2018 10:43

Do you think the male ally is a MRA, trying to stir the pot? I've never really seen them in action before.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 06/10/2018 10:38

"The female trans ally in the comments actually attacks MN because she thinks we don't pay enough attention to #metoo and spend all our time talking about trans issues. "

Well we used to talk about all sorts of stuff before this blew up! It's been an increasing conversation on here for years though.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 06/10/2018 10:37

In the other article from the "pro" lawyer:

"Better policy would focus less on trans and more on those prisoners (cis and trans) who have a history of sexual offending. The fox metaphor is also unhelpful because it is used deliberately to misgender trans women. However, there are clearly vixens in female prisons and other prisoners need to be protected from them. This can be done in one of two ways. First, though this is hardly ever mentioned in such debates, female prisoners (cis and trans) who pose a significant enough danger to other prisoners (cis and trans) might be segregated in a separate prison unit.

Second, prisoners (cis and trans) identified as dangerous can be allocated/transferred to a male prison"

OK I mean the whole thing is highly biased but the suggestion that

women do it too
so trans women should not be singled out but risk assessed like any other women
and then put in segregation
or put in a MENS PRISON?????????

WTAF have I misunderstood that?
This person wants violent / sex offending cunty people locked in prison with men?

Original poster
SusanBunch · 06/10/2018 10:30

*Carte blanche- not crate...

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Original poster
SusanBunch · 06/10/2018 10:29

Such cognitive dissonance. On one hand- me too= we are fed up with male sexual violence, which is endemic. We must eradicate it. Simultaneously- any man who says he is a woman, is one, and should be allowed into female spaces and should be allowed to stand on AWS. Women who want single sex spaces are right-wing bigots.

How can you logically argue both positions? On one hand noting all the constant sexual harassment and violence and female underrepresentation and on the other saying that males have a crate blanche to enter female spaces.

I have noticed that a lot of the women doing this simply block and ignore any dissent or challenge. I suspect it’s because it is obvious to them that their position is illogical. Many of them are highly educated and intelligent and it must be tiring to be wilfully blind to the mismatch between their positions on #metoo and TWAW.

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Ereshkigal · 06/10/2018 10:21

The female trans ally in the comments actually attacks MN because she thinks we don't pay enough attention to #metoo and spend all our time talking about trans issues.

As you say, there is a clear connection. And that is at the heart of this debate.

Original poster
SusanBunch · 06/10/2018 10:04

Oh dear. If only we had kept quiet and done as we were told. That’s why I want to bang my head against a wall when I see women retweeting Sharpe and saying ‘ffs grow up and stop worrying about genitals’ and then 10 minutes later they tweet something about Kavanaugh and predatory men. Can they not see the two are connected? Alex Sharpe doesn’t give a shit about violence towards women. Alex will be happy if you retweet the blog post with some sycophantic comments, but don’t ever expect anything in in return. Because, after all, trans women are the most oppressed group in the world. After white males of course.

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Ereshkigal · 06/10/2018 09:50

Ffs- Alex Sharpe: ‘women, you’re worrying over nothing- you will still have your protections’. In same paragraph: ‘I want those protections repealed’.

As ever. The slippery inconsistent nature of transactivist arguments and the complete disregard and disrespect for women is really quite something.

It doesn't take long for the male ally in the comments to start banging on about "man hating" and misandry" even though he claims he used to be more on feminists' side but us nasty ladies have put him off with our refusal to compromise so now he thinks we should lose our rights to men.

Original poster
SusanBunch · 06/10/2018 09:31

Ffs- Alex Sharpe: ‘women, you’re worrying over nothing- you will still have your protections’. In same paragraph: ‘I want those protections repealed’.

Alex Sharpe is not and has never been a feminist and has shown absolutely zero concern for women’s rights or any understanding whatsoever ever of the fear that many natal women have of male bodies. Absolutely none. For any woman (academic or otherwise) jumping on AS’s bandwagon to show how inclusive you are: you are excluding the experiences, rights and realities of natal women in doing so. Women do not fear male-bodied people because they are hateful or prejudiced or in bed with the right wing. They fear them because they have been oppressed by them forever, because they have been beaten by them, raped by them, exluded from public life by them, told they are worthless by them. Do not compare it to racism- it’s nothing like it. Oh yes, it is. It’s the same as if white people self-declared as black and tried to trample on every little provision ever granted to give black people some parity.

I am sure Alex has had significant struggles. However, growing up and being socialised as a woman will not have been one of them. Alex did not transition until mid-40s. Exactly what kind of insight into the plight of women who have been raped, harassed, beaten does that give? Evidently none whatsoever. Alex wants even the crappy shitty protection that now allows a rape crisis centre (but only if brave enough to face the cries of transphobia) to exclude males, to be repealed.

New blog from Rosa Freedman and Rosemary Auchmuty
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deepwatersolo · 06/10/2018 08:40

And as soon as this raft of criminal laws has ended male violence against women, Alex, indeed, no other measures will be needed.

The confident display of the total absence of logical thought in adults with a large platform gets to me every time.

TimeLady · 06/10/2018 07:54

Some robust GC comments on there now

Ereshkigal · 05/10/2018 20:59

I mean, it must work both ways...

I strongly suspect it won't.

Ereshkigal · 05/10/2018 20:58

I mean, there’s only 5 comments on there- one which is from his colleague and one from that troll Girl From Mars, who spends their time doxxing feminists and stirring shit.

Grin yes, everyone is totally pro-Alex!

Original poster
SusanBunch · 05/10/2018 19:34

Do feel free to comment on the blog post by the way. I just saw Alex on twitter gloating about how ‘all the comments are pro-me’. I mean, there’s only 5 comments on there- one which is from his colleague and one from that troll Girl From Mars, who spends their time doxxing feminists and stirring shit.

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Knicknackpaddyflak · 05/10/2018 19:29

sorry, cross post.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 05/10/2018 19:27

In fact Alex believes that sexual autonomy should not be an absolute right and that the subjective experience of a complainant should not be attended to if it messes with the right of an alleged offender to self determination and privacy.

Original poster
SusanBunch · 05/10/2018 19:18

Thanks, Ereshkigal. Ah yes, the delusional beliefs of feminists that sexual autonomy should not have limits, eh?

I despise how Alex Sharpe conflates dangerous men with lesbians and suggests that we are equally at risk from males and females. Nope. Even if a female inmate had been convicted of having sex with a female pupil at school, that person would be highly unlikely to be a physical threat to me. The case Sharpe cited as evidence of female sex offenders had significant mitigating circumstances, which were addressed by the judge at sentencing.

I don’t know if I dislike Sharpe’s dismissal of women’s concern as much as I dislike the ‘feminist’ academics jumping on the bandwagon, saying GC feminists should grow up and stop worrying about what’s in someone’s pants.

With the vast majority of the men who have sexually harassed and assaulted me, i never saw what was in their pants. I didn’t need to- I knew they were men. These women simultaneously tweet about mansplaining and ‘cis white males’. Maybe I should tell them to stop focusing on what’s in people’s pants as well... I mean, it must work both ways...

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Ereshkigal · 05/10/2018 19:06

Linking your earlier thread Susan

Blog Post by Prof Alex Sharpe
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3362685-Blog-Post-by-Prof-Alex-Sharpe

Ereshkigal · 05/10/2018 19:02

We had another thread about Alex recently. Alex thinks that people don't always have the right to know what sex their sex partner is if it invades the privacy of trans people.