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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

40% against the GRA changes in Scotland, from initial consultation breakdown

61 replies

leyat · 12/09/2018 18:10

So the initial findings just shared with ourselves and some others regarding the Scottish GRA consultation found that a whopping 40% of responses were against self ID, despite LGBT/trans orgs saying that only a very tiny minority were against the government's proposals.

Yes we would like a majority against but that was never going to be likely due to the nature of the issue and the fact that LGBT groups were rallying all their support behind supporting the proposals while most women had no idea it was even happening or was relevant to them. But we also never needed a majority against the proposals to challenge this legislation. We of course need to see a proper breakdown and how responses are weighted, but this is a win for us. This kind of legislation needs solid widespread support if it is to be argued that it will not impact on women and girls, and not even something like an unrepresentative consultation where trans activists went full force in getting all their support to respond to it - and one which did not at all address the possible impacts on women and girls - can give them that. And we can be sure that women's responses were not generic and went into great detail and evidence in terms of how our lives would be impacted, which is something the govt cannot ignore. The govt cannot say a substantial number of women's lives being affected is just fine cos most people that responded to the consultation don't care. It doesn't work like that. So great job everyone who worked on this. We did good.

*I tried to link the file but realise it's only images I can upload...

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Cismyfatarse1 · 12/09/2018 22:39

It must be worth writing to any organisations that have filled in the consultation that we are part of / know of and asking:

Who filled it in?

On what authority?

How were answered discussed, decided on?

Did anyone disagree with answers. If so who? What were the objections?

Etc.

Hold the organisations accountable for speaking on "our" behalf, if we are members.

Some odd ones there - a Jedburgh running club, for example.

Shine a light on the answers and then publicise responses.

PencilsInSpace · 12/09/2018 22:16

40% against self ID in a very poorly advertised consultation with incredibly loaded questions framed in obscure language which appears on first glance to only affect Scotland.

We can win this.

I was out leafletting for FPFW last weekend. NOBODY I spoke to knew about the current England and Wales consultation. We just have to make sure as many people as possible know about the current consultation and have the chance to make their views heard.

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004

fairplayforwomen.com/

theOtherPamAyres · 12/09/2018 22:02

We are not a tiny minority and the consultation did not specifically consult women but it has given as a basis for asking the Scottish govt to now consult with us on these changes.

This is the point. Opponents are not a small group standing in the way of so-called progress. They are the tip of an iceberg. The Titanic looked unstoppable when it left the quayside, but we all know what happened next.

littlbrowndog · 12/09/2018 22:00

Gawd it so stinks the whole thing

leyat · 12/09/2018 21:57

(also important to note that opposition is building....)

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BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/09/2018 21:54

And we will never have to hear again how hardly anyone opposes these changes

a very good point

leyat · 12/09/2018 21:52

Scottish women's organisations allowed Engender Scotland to decide their policies, and Engender met privately with the Scottish Trans Alliance to work out the way forward, and did not carry out or utilise any form of consultation, research or evidence in taking their view. Bex Stixon at Stonewall admitted that they only way this was possible, i.e. the only way to get women's orgs on-board like this, was to keep it all behind closed doors and without involving women and service users.

But any trans activist who thinks 40% against these changes is a good result is either stupid or lying or both. This isn't a who gets most votes wins scenario. All women and girls needed to show was a substiantial response to the consultation highlighting that these changes would have negative impacts on them. Mind you, if trans activists are now complacent it's not a bad thing. And we will never have to hear again how hardly anyone opposes these changes.

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BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/09/2018 21:50

I wonder what proportion of trans people are pro-GRA reform

depends on your definition of trans people I would think

The GRA reform is primarily for them and about them

nope. It affects women and children. it is also about women and children

littlbrowndog · 12/09/2018 21:46

Yeah Vicky and when ppl don’t know about how can they be consulted

No one I knew even heard abou5 it. Not one person

VickyEadie · 12/09/2018 21:45

Consultation means 'see what people say about it'. % of those in favour or against doesn't signify 'this must happen'.

It's not a referendum.

littlbrowndog · 12/09/2018 21:44

Yeps ova. Exactly

littlbrowndog · 12/09/2018 21:43

Lols at the sister.

IAmLurkacus · 12/09/2018 21:43

We need to start campaigning for the repeal of the GRA. There’s a thread on here somewhere. We need sex protections and we need protection for gender non conforming people and we need sex and gender legally separated.

OvaHere · 12/09/2018 21:41

A lot of those services rely on funding so I suppose it's a bit like having a gun to your head.

ToeToToe · 12/09/2018 21:40

The tide is turning.

The 2004 GRA slipped through without anybody noticing.

Now - people are talking about it. Really talking.

So many news stories - Karen White, Martin Ponting, Aimee & David Challenor, Jess Bradley, plus many other stories coming through from Canada (which is where we're heading if we don't object to this) - a woman hounded b a politician for holding a placard, a waxing shop sued because a muslim woman couldn't wax a trans M to F, a woman in a gym changing room having a naked male with an erection trying to engage her in conversation...

So many places are already acting as though self ID is law, these stories are coming out every week now.

SistersOfMercy · 12/09/2018 21:40

Should also add that the government over there, and over here in England will give far more weight to trans voices. The GRA reform is primarily for them and about them. I wonder what proportion of trans people are pro-GRA reform, something in the 99-99.5% region I would guess...

SistersOfMercy · 12/09/2018 21:38

Excellent news, so GRA reform will be passing in Scotland. Also worth noting all the organisations that provide services to women in Scotland were pro-GRA reform. Overwhelmingly pro-GRA when so many people are ignorant of trans issues, a stunning victory for trans rights. SO glad I heard it here first.

VickyEadie · 12/09/2018 21:36

'Consultations' are always heavily weighted by responses from the people massively centred by the issue.

Who tend to be the majority of the ones who even know there's a consultation.

It wasn't a fucking referendum.

howonearthdidwegethere · 12/09/2018 21:33

beta.gov.scot/programme-for-government/

Wording re the GRA: "We will also continue work to enable us to deliver Bills on Gender Recognition and Forensic Medical Examinations for next year’s legislative programme."

Theswaggyotter · 12/09/2018 21:31

I didn’t know they had announced delay in changes - that is encouraging as the tide continues to turn then there may be less political appetite to make they crazy changes

howonearthdidwegethere · 12/09/2018 21:22

It is entirely legitimate for people in the rest of the UK outside Scotland to have responded. The border is porous so it doesn't matter which constituent part of the UK introduces self-ID: we would be affected even if the place where we lived did.

Same goes for Scots who want to respond to the UK consultation. GO RIGHT AHEAD!

Although it's disappointing the majority were pro self-ID, those are big numbers for a consultation. I'd imagine it'd make the SG officials hesitate. Indeed, it's likely the volume of responses is part of the reason the SG announced last week it's not going to proceed with proposals to reform the GRA until the next legislative session.

There is hope! Let's not give up! Keep emailing your elected reps, visiting them at their surgeries, write letters, hand out flyers. NEVER GIVE UP.

boatyardblues · 12/09/2018 21:21

I don’t understand the question. 🤷‍♂️

littlbrowndog · 12/09/2018 21:20

👆see my question

You same person as allday breakfast ?

boatyardblues · 12/09/2018 21:18

RUK = rest of UK

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