Dr Nicola Williams on BBC2 at 10.15, Victoria Live

Sorry

I meant to quote in my last post

The clear answer is a third/fourth space. Just the same as toilets, changing rooms, refuges...

That's what was being suggested when Tara's mask slipped and the expletives started.

Is there any data on how trans or GNC males are treated in the male estate?

The at risk argument is used a lot but how much is it compared to the average male prisoner?

I watched a US documentary a few years back (might have been a Louis Thereoux one) and there was a trans prisoner featured who didn't appear to be any worse off than anyone else there. They were a bit of a curiosity I recall and one of the other inmates was their boyfriend. I think it was maximum security where everyone was in for a long stretch rather than on remand.

It's on iPlayer now if anyone's interested - starts at about 1 hr 47 mins in. www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bjjqvd/victoria-derbyshire-10092018

Dr Nic came across as very reasonable and well-informed.

Tara, as everyone's already pointed out, came across well initially and then appeared totally unhinged. Judging by Tara's record of criminal violence, I would guess she's on a very short fuse.

It's interesting that Tara is out of step with much of the trans lobby, who think that anyone who self-IDs as a woman should be treated as a woman. She makes that distinction between "genuine" transwomen and the rest (though I don't think Tara's had surgery, has she? Has she got rid of her 7 inch surprise?) I wonder if Tara is regarded as "truscum" by TRAs?

There is an interesting grey area about what we should do about prisoners like Tara. If it's true that she was raped three times in a men's prison, that's pretty shocking - though I bet there are also young men who have been raped inside a men's prison.

I am only about 2mins in on iplayer and I can see that Tara person is absolutely fizzing with rage and arrogance, before they have even spoken a word.

I bet the middle-class political-mediators are up in arms that the BBC dared invite an actual trans offender to give their opinion on the matter.

I’m guessing that Victoria Derbyshire didn’t get the memo about Stonewall approved ‘experts’ only...

The clear answer is a third/fourth space. Just the same as toilets, changing rooms, refuges...

Except that that isn't what the likes of TH wants. Because the discussion was going swimmingly until NW made that exact suggestion, TW tried interrupting, wasn't allowed to and suddenly became very 'male' in their response.

That is precisely why there should be no men/males, however long ago they started calling themselves 'she', in women's spaces.

To be fair - Tara didn't agree that transwomen should be allowed into women's prisons no matter what. Tara just wanted to be sure that people like Tara didn't end up in male prisons and on this point, I agree. A man who presents as female will be eaten alive in a male prison. That's not right either.

The fact is, no one wants to be with violent men.

The clear answer is a third/fourth space. Just the same as toilets, changing rooms, refuges...

I found myself agreeing with much of what Tara said, which surprised me.

Thank you Tara,

Its clear from that Telegraph article that neither women's or men's prisons can accommodate trans without significant problems, special unit seems the best.

Just a reminder of what Tara "fuck you" Hudson took into the women's estate with Tara.

I do wonder if the Victoria Derbyshire show do much research about the guests they interview.

Or are some things not allowed?

Tara Hudson's requirement that transwomen should have surgery presumably is limited to specific procedures?

On rolling BBC News now. They're featuring Tara doing the "emotional" bit. No bird flipping, of course. Now Nic about the consultation and self-ID and its effect on eligibility for women's prisons.

Finally, an actual TV news item.

When an elderly man used the pronoun “he”, White called the police to report it as a hate crime

Is there likely at some point to be a comment by the police about the numbers and reporting of alleged transphobic 'hate crimes' which are not prosecuted?

Given White's crimes and convictions, this rather puts in stark contrast how police resources should (and shouldn't) be used.

On the VD Show about Mermaids there was a workshop given by a police officer about hate crimes and Susie Green made reference to the number of alleged hate crimes that she had reported & that a percentageof these had been investigated (though none prosecuted)

Thanks for the link. It was plain common sense and calm intelligence on one side and a quite worryingly unstable and aggressive person on the other.

Just a reminder of what Tara "fuck you" Hudson took into the women's estate with Tara.

Waves to handmaidens. 👋🏼 Still think men who pretend to be women should share female spaces?

Tara managed to whip up a decent amount of sympathy when imprisoned.

150,000 people signed the petition to free Hudson or place them in a womans' prison

this was the petition started by Ceri Jenkins:
www.change.org/p/bath-magistrates-prison-govenor-of-hm-prison-bristol-british-judicial-system-stop-transgender-woman-tara-hudson-from-being-sent-to-an-all-male-prison-in-bristol

(extract)
"Trans campaigners estimate that there are between 20 and 30 trans individuals in UK prisons at any time, and that they are some of the most at-risk members of the incarceration system. In fact, transgender women in male prisons are 13 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than in the general population, with 59 percent reporting sexual assaults, according to a frequently cited US study.

According to Amnesty International, globally, LGBT prisoners and those perceived to be LGBT, are at risk of torture, ill-treatment and violence from other inmates as well as prison officials.

Trans people are also at a much higher risk of mental health issues than the rest of the populace. In 2014, a survey found that 48% of trans people under 26 said they had attempted suicide, and 30% said they had done so in the past year, while 59% said they had at least considered doing so. By comparison, about 6% of all 16- to 24-year-olds say they have attempted suicide, according to the Adult Psychiatry Morbidity Survey."

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/03/transgender-woman-who-was-sent-to-male-prison-is-freed

Ceri Jenkins who wrote the petition is the Equality Officer at Bath Spa University.

"Founder of the national Gender Equality Network. Stonewall School Role Model. Columnist for DIVA Magazine. Campaign lead for #ISeeTara, #RechargeAndResist, and #SelfCareAware. I've also enjoyed running an award-winning blog covering current affairs and opinion pieces, as well as contributing to the likes of The Independent, the BBC, and The Huffington Post."

from recent thread about Stephanie /Stephen Mottershead's crime & sentence:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3330210-Violent-yob-41-who-stabbed-man-in-the-liver-during-noise-row-at-apartment-block-will-serve-two-year-sentence-in-an-all-womens-jail?pg=4

why is Karen a less credible 'woman' than Tara?

Indeed. And why is there no proper scrutiny. I think we should know what it is about a man in prison for violent offences that makes him a woman. It should be clear and open and there should be significant input by those affected.

Here: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bjjqvd/victoria-derbyshire-10092018

from 1:46

When an elderly man used the pronoun “he”, White called the police to report it as a hate crime.

But of course he did. Literal violence and all that.

I think it was very interesting. People like Tara were, a few years back, enthusiastically demanding recognition of themselves and their status based on the fact that they 'looked' like women and without the boring business of getting assessed, getting a GRC, or full surgery. Tara managed to whip up a decent amount of sympathy when imprisoned. I think they are starting to realise that they opened the door to all this - because why is Karen a less credible 'woman' than Tara? In both cases we have only their say-so.

That's why Tara was trying to put some clear blue water between Tara and Karen and was being 'reasonable' on not allowing men to transition in prison etc. But it won't wash.

I missed this - is it available to watch anywhere yet?

Oh my, such an own goal. They are really good at that.

Apart from the bare facts at the beginning, I don't think she referenced the victims at all, did she? And she also said the first guest 'alleges' Karen White was a rapist, but I thought White had now admitted it?

Did VD say this had only come to light recently when White appeared in court?
It was reported in July 2018
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3309758-This-never-happens-male-offenders-in-female-prisons

Fuller reporting of Karen White AKA David Thompson and Stephen Wood's convictions in Sunday Times which included comment by Melissa Briscoe who was on VD Show:
(extract)
"The friend, Melissa Briscoe, recounts the rape victim’s story: “He turned up one evening with a bottle of vodka. She didn’t drink any, but she thinks that he spiked her soft drink. She came to find me to tell me what had happened. She was very distressed, crying and shaking. I took her straight down to the police station.”

“The last thing she remembers was falling asleep. When she came to, she found Stephen Wood raping her. He’d said he was going to help her, get her settled. He’d set himself up as a confidant.”

At the time, Wood was out of prison on licence after serving part of an 18-month sentence for abusing a primary school child. He was staying at the Birch Lane probation hostel in Manchester, where Briscoe was a staff member. The rape victim was visiting one of the other offenders in the hostel.

Briscoe, who also knew Wood and had access to his record, said there was “no sign at all that he was trans”, describing him as a “very manipulative” person who would “develop relationships with vulnerable residents in the hostel and befriend them”. He repeatedly breached his probation conditions, she said, and was not recalled to prison after the rape.

Briscoe, now a senior therapist at a charity, said Wood had a history of seeking access to mixed and women’s institutions to find and abuse vulnerable people. As well as the bail hostel and the prison, she said, police told her Wood had gained admission to a mixed psychiatric ward, where he had repeatedly raped a young woman patient suffering from Asperger’s syndrome.

Further, non-sexual crimes committed by Wood include stabbing his neighbour and committing severe physical violence against his former partner, her daughter and his son. A restraining order prevented him from contacting the son until he turned 18." (continues)

Pending:
"White is now in HMP Armley in Leeds, awaiting sentencing for crimes including the prison assaults and stabbing"

sources:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why-was-convicted-paedophile-allowed-to-move-to-a-female-jail-nmpbfm272
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rapist-karen-white-in-women-s-jail-was-trans-faker-lbcwjp8jc

Poor Victoria. No opportunity for sympathetic head-tilting at all there. Just an awkward sit-in-front-of-tsunami-of-common-sense-and-righteous-anger and try and keep it brief.