Karen White case - how MN can help build political pressure for change

Lang where are these details from?

OMFG.

White had abused and/or raped women at:

a women's jail
a mixed sex psychiatric ward
a bail hostel

He also had a conviction for abuse of a child. And yet, even after raping in a bail hostel and a mixed sex psychiatric ward and abusing a child, he was placed into not just a women's prison but a women's prison containing a mother and baby unit.

*What about a biologically female person who identifies as male, is sent to prison and insists on being placed in a male prison?

It wouldn't be possible due to risk.

It's the law though, right?

Wouldn't they be forced to accommodate a transman? With security. A bodyguard maybe. What if it were two transmen? Two bodyguards?

Or let them get attacked?

Where are the documents stating what will happen?

Utter mess.

What about a biologically female person who identifies as male, is sent to prison and insists on being placed in a male prison?

It wouldn't be possible due to risk.

Francis Crook Howard Reform commented on this earlier this year in Mail on Sunday article:

"Ms Crook, executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform, added: ‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration.

‘Moreover, the process is inherently discriminatory. A woman identifying as a man could not be transferred to a man’s jail because placing a person with female attributes into a prison to live with 1,000 men, all using communal showers and living areas, would put them in serious danger.’ (continues)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

What about a biologically female person who identifies as male, is sent to prison and insists on being placed in a male prison?

How does that work?

from the Sunday Times article above by Andrew Gilligan:

'Trans offender seeks to wipe crimes as a man from record'
(extract)
A transgender offender is seeking to delete from her record two crimes that could only have been committed by a man.

“I do not wish my gender history to be more widely known and do not wish to disclose my trans status to employers,” the woman, who asked to be identified only as Helen, said. She is to launch a judicial review to remove two convictions for “importuning as a man” when she worked at a Soho “clip joint” in the 1970s and 1980s.

A right to removal, if established, could cover rape, another crime that can legally be committed only by a person with a penis.

Trans people with a gender recognition certificate are legally entitled to keep their birth gender secret.

Helen’s barrister, Claire McCann, said disclosure of offences that revealed Helen’s birth gender in criminal record checks was “severe and discriminatory interference with Helen’s right to respect for her private life”. (continues)

Claire McCann provided legal guidance at the WEP re the GRA,
Michelle Brewer had initially been due to partner her on the panel. Michelle Brewer was a co-founder of TELI (Trans Equality Legal Initiave) with Tara Hewitt and Jess Bradley.

relevent threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3356182-who-s-going-to-the-wep-conference-this-weekend-fancy-a-thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3325882-WEP-conference-questions-for-panel-of-trans-rights-advocating-barristers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3318961-Ultimate-betrayal-by-the-WEP

Holy I'm reminded of a quote often attributed to Churchill.

'If you are going through hell, keep on going'

Wowm surely the second one cannot possibly be allowed? Thats a disaster waiting to happen and yet another thing feminists said would happen, that would never happen, coming true.

The ramifications of that second one are terrifying.

and also:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-offender-seeks-to-wipe-crimes-as-aman-from-record-qfk5w68lb?shareToken=2bb5072907deafb68dd42f53a6ab758a

Andrew Gilligan in the Sunday Times:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why-was-convicted-paedophile-allowed-to-move-to-a-female-jail-nmpbfm272?shareToken=8b9313ac6c1c9227a1a737ce990cb9f4

I hate it when politicans try and make everything a "case by case basis". It makes it ridiculously hard for normal people doing their jobs and trying to stick by ever changing rules and not be sued. I feel sorry for the poor pub landlord or leisure centre manager who will be forced to make a decision on the spot when push comes to shove.

Also even if trans prisioners are left on the mens side, they are still being afforded privileges that other prisioners on the male estate are not. If a trans woman without a GRC is legally a man then it is discrimination to allow trans women privileges which other prisoners on the male estate cannot access.

Where is labours solidarity for the female prison guards who may now be forced to perform strip searches on Karen White and other sex offenders of a different sex? Are those working class women too privileged for labour to care about?

Surely the problem with excluding anyone convicted of VAWG is that sometimes the offenders are natal women?

Yup, a lot of the male people in Jess' thread seemed to be almost happy at this. You cannot exclude male people from female areas, unless you also exclude female people, was the implication

The proposition of the thread was that MNs build political pressure for change.

I think MN has been doing that for some considerable time

The suggestion was to tweet Jess P and give an opinion on whether TIMS convicted of violence against women should be in the female estate

We wouldn't be in this position if Jess and the Parliamentary Committee on Transgender Matters had listened to women's organisations, rather than TIMS.

It is working. The wheels are off the transwagon in a way I didn't think possible this time last year. Even Owen Jones has decided he has a cake to ice. Two stories in the Times this weekend. James and Graham doing amazing work. And it's all coming from here and from Fair Play For Women and Man Friday and from Women's Place UK.

So we keep going. More people are discussing this IRL. I see people every day saying they are tired of it now - it's time to post on their FB or tweet in their real name about this.

So we keep going. We peak trans the lurkers and we give journalists ideas and we go onto AIBU and spread the word. We tweet and email our MPs. We fill in the consultation. And then we win, slowly but surely.

And then, because of us, vulnerable women don't get raped by men in women's prisons. Actual real people, not getting raped.

Have a gold star MN

The National Center for Lesbian Rights has sided with the transwomen, stating that the female prisoners are acting out of transphobia and need to be educated

The idea that women who are trapped in a situation where they are helpless to stop males sexually harassing them should be "educated" to shut up about it horrifies me.

We keep on keeping on.

@placemats
Agreed. No one left to vote for, even if I broadly agreed with their mission, policies and their position on this leave me cold.

Time for a Mumsnet revolution - I say this after an hour long discussion with DH (where I updated him on GP Aimee Challenor/TERFblocker) and he tells me not to worry as I can't do anything about it...but I am worried!

Am reminded of a speech by Reese Witherspoon "what do we do now?"

What do we do?

The National Center for Lesbian Rights is that for Male or female Lesbians?

I must admit that I don't have a good grasp of the percentage of the US prison population who are GRC'd or Self-ID's in UK terms so I can't judge this quoted figure:

384 offenders who identified as transgender out of an inmate population of about 147,000 in Texas state prisons.

And, I'd like to know the numbers who are convicted of sexual offences and if they're similar to the UK.

FFS! Materialist, have you got links to that please?