Karen White case - how MN can help build political pressure for change

So there are currently lots of efforts to label a woman's place a hate group. So far WPUK haven't taken legal action. But there will come a point that they might well NEED to.

I've just seen this pop up on Jess's feed.

Take note of the implications for MN or for any closed GC groups. This is important.

Lucy Powell MP @LucyMPowell
Here’s a preview of my Bill tomorrow which calls for greater responsibility and accountability of online forums. The law has not kept up with their power. Thanks to my co-sponsors from across Parliament for their support

Jess Phillips @jessphillips
Proud to sponsor Lucy's bill

www.theguardian.com/technology/commentisfree/2018/sep/10/online-echo-chambers-hate-facebook-bill
Why I am seeking to stamp out online echo chambers of hate

Online echo chambers are normalising and allowing extremist views to go viral unchallenged. These views are spread as the cheap thrill of racking up Facebook likes drives behaviour and reinforces a binary worldview. Some people are being groomed unwittingly as unacceptable language is treated as the norm. Others have a more sinister motive.

and

Through Facebook groups (essentially forums), extremists can build large audiences. There are many examples of groups that feature anti-Muslim or antisemitic content daily, in an environment which, because critics are removed from the groups, normalises these hateful views. If you see racist images, videos and articles in your feed but not the opposing argument, you might begin to think those views are acceptable and even correct. If you already agree with them, you might be motivated to act.

What could POSSIBLY go wrong with this?

The most ridiculous thing about it, is also that this is COMPLETELY unworkablein practice.

Its fine to go after Facebook, but it misses the point completely that OTHER PLATFORMS ARE AVAILABLE.

I also would LOVE to know how this is compatible with private twitter accounts and DO enlighten me as to how this works with twitter mass block lists? You know, the entire point of these filters being TO CREATE ECHO CHAMBERS?????

Jess, if your team are reading this thread, please do tell me HOW THE HELL YOU MANAGE TO USE TWITTER AND NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THIS BILL IS FUCKING FARCIAL DRIVEL WHICH WILL BE USED MALICIOUSLY OR COULD BE USED FOR EQUALLY DUBIOUS ENDS BY THE STATE?

I am really failing to see how this bill which seems to be aimed solely at Facebook, is going to improve anything.

I might understand your naivety or stupidity over this, if you were not a regular twitter user like a lot of Conservative Dinosaurs. But you are not. I might understand it if there wasn't a shed load of publicity over the Green Party debacle going on at the moment. But I'm pretty damn sure you are aware of that one too.

The worst thing is, I bet the Conservative Party will be loving the idea of this bill and it'll get waved through parliament, because you are all too bloody dense to use your brain cells - especially when it comes to social media.

Yes, we get it. 'The internet is bad', is a really attractive policy but by god are you all missing the point about echo chambers.

Yes, Shots. Exactly. It annoys me doubly about Jess Stab-em In The Front Phillips. She actively cultivates an image of bolshy working class woman, unafraid to say what she thinks. It's bollocks.

@LangCleg We see you trying to pretend it wasn't you. It was you. Be accountable.

That's it, isn't it. If you hold a clear position, have the gumption to stand by it and explain why. We may not agree, but that's life.

Don't flip flop like a fish on a hook trying to kid everyone you're their mate. It is far, far worse and far, far sneakier than having the honest courage of your convictions.

Well, if OP is one of JP's staff, one would hope that the feedback has been filtered back.

Jess: you're not fooling anybody. We saw your work about trans prisoners on the Parliamentary Committee. We weren't impressed then and we are even less impressed now. We see you trying to pretend it wasn't you. It was you. Be accountable.

Up until now, according to advanced search, that is PotsofJam's only message on MN: www.mumsnet.com/SearchArch?mustmatch=&dontmatch=&nickname=PotsofJam&src_displ_option=s_m_d_m&fromDate=&toDate=&topicmode=All&availtops=-1

If this is one of JP's volunteer/staff, they need better training in how to use social media without irritating members of the platform. - Of course, we could it's one of the dudebros paving the way to de-selecting JP by making her and her team seem clueless. :)

Did the OP ever reappear?

I hope I’m wrong and that this isn’t a JP initiated thread, and I’ll happily apologise for my earlier rant if the OP returns and refutes.

That Sue Pascoe tweet is awful.

WPUK statement:

"Slurs Slander & Libel
In the course of the last year Woman’s Place UK (WPUK) has been under almost relentless attack both on social media and in real life.

We believe that many of the comments made about us are defamatory and could qualify as libel and/or slander.

We are often encouraged by our supporters to take legal action to challenge these slurs and defend our reputation, including when they have been made about individual members of WPUK. On occasion, we have done this by sending pre-action legal letters and this has usually resulted in the withdrawal or deletion of the defamation.

We are very grateful to our supporters in the legal field who have advised us pro bono on these cases and continue to do so.

However, the pursuit of a legal case is fraught with problems (not least the time and cost) and we have often chosen to ignore comments made by those petty individuals trying to deflect people away from our campaign. To tackle every scurrilous tweet or post would take us away from the important work of winning our five demands.

We are all juggling other responsibilities and simply don’t have the time or energy to challenge every slur through the law.

We are lucky to have so many supporters who often challenge these slurs on our behalf and use our record to demand retractions.

We are incredibly grateful to you all.

We believe that, on this issue, this approach is as – if not more – effective than lengthy, costly court proceedings which would give our detractors more glory than they merit.

We never rule legal action out and where we have taken steps we have been rewarded. But we think our campaign is best won in the court of public opinion not a court of law. And, with your support that is where we continue to focus our time and our energy."

4th September 2018

womansplaceuk.org/slurs-slander-libel/

Its extraordinary Wanderabout isn't it? When on earth are these appalling smears against women going to be challenged?

When Sue was interviewed on Sky, she articulated considerable contempt for 'feminists', especially those who were also lesbians.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3311038-Sky-News-9-30am-today-re-GRA

Sue Pascoe also recently tweeted support for the petition to parliament which is an acknowledged attempt to outlaw Transgender Trend's toolkit from schools.

Thanks Rowan your links and info are amazing.

Bloody hell on Sue Pascoe!!! I had missed that tweet. That's unhinged.

The whole 'it was just this case it is all fine' line definitely needs some serious Robinsoning.

Paris Green?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3273582-Sadistic-killer-who-was-born-a-man-but-sent-to-a-female-prison-for-murder-only-to-be-moved-for-sleeping-with-inmate-is-set-for-20-000-sex-change-operation

Scotland prisons had some serious issues with male-born prisoners in women's estate:

Sophie Eastwood / Alex Stewart May 2018
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242178-Transgender-killers-split-up-by-prison-chiefs
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242264-Transgender-murders-in-Scottish-womens-prison

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3167930-To-think-a-transgender-male-murderer-should-not-be-allowed-to-win-Miss-Fitness-competition-WHILE-IN-JAIL

Recent thread, isssues with BBC reporting:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3334473-BBC-reality-check-on-trans-prisoners

Well, it's delightful that C4 effectively is now in line with that degree of hyperbole and mischaracterisation. I wonder how much longer it will be before WPUK has to issue desist letters.

I wonder if Sue Pascoe availed herself of SY Police Twitter soliciting reports of hurtful worlds etc. (as per AIBU).

I'm not the only poster thinking this, how long until FWR is reported and just how many times?

No doubt partly because of all the brilliant campaigning and lobbying work done by women and orgs like WPUK and FPFW

tweet by Sue Pascoe (recently appointed inclusion consultant for CHannel 4 and prospective Conservative candidate)

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3331095-Channel-4-appoints-a-new-advisor-on-inclusion

This is an easy political win.

It was a Tory policy. (Was Gove the minister at the time?) It’s patently bananas. Any of the other parties should be wiping the floor with them.

There’s fuel for PMQs that Theresa May will REALLY struggle with

The whole 'it was just this case it is all fine' line definitely needs some serious Robinsoning.

Nic Williams of the marvellous Fair Play For Women has just tweeted she is going to be on Victoria Derbyshire in about 10 mins to discuss this case:

mobile.twitter.com/AskNic/status/1039073161252364288

David Gauke, the justice secretary, has just been on Today. He said it was a failure of assessment in this particular case, not of the policy.

This seemed the likely approach that was going to be taken after the Guardian's late coverage yesterday:
(extract)
"The Ministry of Justice has apologised in White’s case and said previous offending history was not taken into account. Requests for transfer from prisoners whose legal gender does not accord with their self-identified gender are normally assessed by a transgender case board, “which should consider all previous offending history”, but this was not carried out in this case."

[[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/09/sexual-assaults-in-womens-prison-reignite-debate-over-transgender-inmates-karen-white]

The Guardian article also included comment by Francis Crook:

"Frances Crook, the chief executive of the Howard League for Penal Reform, said vulnerable women were being put at risk by a small number of violent men whose primary interest was harming women.

“It is a very toxic debate, but I think prisons have probably been influenced by some of the extreme conversations and have been bullied into making some decisions that have harmed women and put staff in an extremely difficult position,” she said.
Crook said that during a recent prison visit a governor told her of five prisoners who were identifying as women and had asked for transfer. All had a history of sexual violence against women and had had their requests turned down. “I would say decision-making is patchy,” said Crook. “While permission is being refused in some instances, clearly mistakes are still being made in others.”

She added: “In my view, any man who has committed a serious sexual or violent offence against women, who then wants to transfer but has not gone through the whole process, still has a penis and still has male hormones, should not be put into a women’s prison. There may be a case for having separate provision; that is a debate to be had.”

& Pilgrim Tucker:
"Pilgrim Tucker, who has led legal action over proposed changes to the Labour party’s policy on the formal inclusion of self-identifying trans women on all-women shortlists, said women campaigning about self-identification had long warned of the risk it posed. “Almost half of trans women prisoners are sex offenders,” she said. “We urgently need to start prioritising the safeguarding of women and girls over the feelings of male-bodied people.” (continues)

Apologies - it was Nick Robinson and I thought he did a reasonable job up until that point when he should have challenged Gauke robustly.

And what RTB said.

There was no assessment here. There wasn't a failure of assessment, there just wasn't one.

Exactly.

There is right now today as we are discussing this another rapist in another women's prison.

Men should not be in women's prisons.

David Gauke, the justice secretary, has just been on Today. He said it was a failure of assessment in this particular case, not of the policy.

1. Gauke is covering his arse, cos the prison service have been caught with their pants round their ankles.
2. There was no assessment here. There wasn't a failure of assessment, there just wasn't one.
3. The policy is unworkable, because assessments aren't happening. Cos lets reflect on this; if there was a workable policy, then any assessment resulting from it should go exactly like this: Rapist? No, he can not go to a women's prison. The End. That's what 2 seconds to do?
4. If they are even considering ONE rapist out of fear of getting sued, then again, the policy is not workable nor right. It needs to be laid out in the strictest legal terms that 'Rapists do not go in women's prisons. The End'.

This is not difficult. It is not controversial. It is not unpopular. It is not hard to be workable.

If you have a conviction for a sexual offense, your gender identity is completely bloody irrelevant.

If you re-read the OP through a lens of "is this a Jess Phillips stooge posting for political gain", it all gets a lot more cynical.

Bzz an MP has made a suggestion on the record about something that may help women prisoners. No doubt partly because of all the brilliant campaigning and lobbying work done by women and orgs like WPUK and FPFW. I'm sure FPFW and any other campaigning org wanting to affect change will want to build on and amplify that to try and get a conversation started and something changed in practice by the decision makers.

I just RTFT and I have doubled up on my disgust upon reading the comments about the OP possibly being a plant for JP. Jess Phillips if you or your staffers are reading this go find some fucking integrity will you. You are late to this, possibly too late to redeem yourself, and your motives are suspect. If you are genuine then I’d suggest you politely request a meeting with FPFW and they can bring you up to speed on alll that you’ve been ignoring.
Mumsnetters are not going to run your campaign for you, FFS.

It was Nick Robinson. I thought he did a good job.

Agree it's bollocks for the MoJ to argue it's just this particular case.

There's another rapist inside a women's prison right now as we speak FFS.

I am so disgusted by all of this. I am writing yet again to my female, Labour, MP who has already fobbed me off with the woke party line. She is a massive disappointment.

I thought it was Nick Robinson interviewing, who not only mentioned that most TW transferring to the females estate still have their penises but also said that a rapist putting on a wig did not make them a woman.