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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

First there was Jess Bradley, then the Challenors, now Edward Lord...

315 replies

PimmsnLemonade · 01/09/2018 15:10

No direct accusations against Edward Lord (the 'non-binary' freemason who is trying to remove single-sex spaces in London) but here he is describing as a "hero" a man who was a member of the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE) and is a continuing "advocate" for paedophiles:

twitter.com/edwardlord/status/958632082762321922

www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/10948796/Paedophilia-is-natural-and-normal-for-males.html

OP posts:
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kesstrel · 01/09/2018 17:21

I first read Butler as a postgrad student in the late 90s (Gender Trouble) and remember being outraged at her inability to account for the real, sex-based oppression of women, and at the immorality of the Foucault-inspired idea that power is neutral and merely negotiated in society,

Whenever I try to read an academic feminist paper I find they all seem to cite Foucault and Derrida as if these two men's writing are Holy Writ. When did feminist academics start taking an uncritical approach to specious dogma promulgated by men? It was clearly after the Women's Studies courses I did in the 70s!

BiologyIsReal · 01/09/2018 17:19

I really don't understand why people are so scared of being called bigots. If it is bigoted to stand up for women and children's rights I am quite happy to be called a bigot.

If all us 'bigots' stood together and stand "so what" there would be nowhere for the Edward Lords of the world to go...seeing as it is apparently a crime worse than murder or strangling kittens to be a bigot.

I am so fed up with these pervey old creeps. They and their queer theory can fuck off.

kesstrel · 01/09/2018 17:16

I still find the concept of performativity useful, particularly in relation to masculinity and TRA behaviour. In my view, if we look at trans arguments and demands through a ‘performativity lense, this shows a performance of male entitlement.

I admit to knowing little about this subject, but to my mind the word "peformance" here is misleading. To the lay mind, at least, 'performance' suggests something artificial, optional, 'put on'. Whereas IMO, most TRAs are behaving in an entitled way because they actually believe they are entitled, and because their culture facilitates this belief. Am I misinterpreting this?

ToeToToe · 01/09/2018 17:13

Oh, and once they've allowed children to legally change their gender - as an awful lot of TRAs are campaigning for - once you've argued that a child under 16 is competent and mature enough to transition to the opposite sex, and be legally recognised as that sex, then it's just a short step to arguing that children are mature enough to consent to sex.

ToeToToe · 01/09/2018 17:10

I've just seen this link on twitter.

Apparently, we're not allowed to imply that trans-activism has been hijacked by those that would seek to normalise sexual relationships with children - aka paedophiles - and yet these people keep proving it over and over.

It's the PIE all over again, and people are so scared of being called bigots, no one's stopping it. Safeguards for children are being torn up all around us.

Potplant2 · 01/09/2018 17:10

In the early days, queer theory was not a men’s rights vehicle as it is now. It started out as a move away from rigid thinking in terms of binaries. That all social categories were neat and bounded and there were no overlaps between good/bad, gay/straight, black/white etc. Butlers theory of performativity in relation to gender was, in my opinion, very useful, in that it allowed us to not see gender as innate, but socially constructed and learned through the reiterating the practices associated with masculity and femininity respectively.

I’ll give you the repetitive performance bit of it, but Butler certainly wasn’t the first to point out that gender isn’t innate. Saying gender is something we repeatedly and perfomatively do isn’t much if anything of a step on from saying that gender is socially constructed, as far as I can see.

I first read Butler as a postgrad student in the late 90s (Gender Trouble) and remember being outraged at her inability to account for the real, sex-based oppression of women, and at the immorality of the Foucault-inspired idea that power is neutral and merely negotiated in society, rather than being the cause of oppression for certain classes of people, notably women. A lovely gay male friend of mine told me I was wrong and explained why and for years I followed that explanation though still feeling uneasy. Recently I’ve decided my first instincts were entirely correct.

Bowlofbabelfish · 01/09/2018 17:09

Darker and darker. Are our resident journo lurkers watching? An exposé on this tangled web of horror is Pulitzer winning stuff. Be brave.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 01/09/2018 17:05

The links around his partner's work are erm interesting as well.

People who want "Intergenerational" sexual relationships are apparently teh most oppressed in a list of oppressed sexualities, because society is sort of prudish and victorian.

LemonJello · 01/09/2018 17:00

And he’s not even deleting the tweet. That’s where we are now.

Mrbatmun · 01/09/2018 16:58

Whaaaaaaaaat?

According to that article Ken Plummer said

'Paedophiles are told they are the seducers and rapists of children; they know their experiences are often loving and tender ones. They are told that children are pure and innocent, devoid of sexuality; they know both from their own experiences of childhood and from the children they meet that this is not the case.”

And Edward Lord is calling him a hero? Wtf?

NothingOnTellyAgain · 01/09/2018 16:51

And to elevate internal / subjective feelings over observable recognised facts.

But only sometimes (transrace gets you a kicking)

Fallingirl · 01/09/2018 16:47

In the early days, queer theory was not a men’s rights vehicle as it is now. It started out as a move away from rigid thinking in terms of binaries. That all social categories were neat and bounded and there were no overlaps between good/bad, gay/straight, black/white etc. Butlers theory of performativity in relation to gender was, in my opinion, very useful, in that it allowed us to not see gender as innate, but socially constructed and learned through the reiterating the practices associated with masculity and femininity respectively. In the earler days of trans advocacy, she was eschewed by trans advocates, for the denial of girl and boy brains.

I still find the concept of performativity useful, particularly in relation to masculinity and TRA behaviour. In my view, if we look at trans arguments and demands through a ‘performativity lense, this shows a performance of male entitlement. I am not saying no woman or girl ever acts entitled to anything, but I am saying that a lot of transwomen are performing an aspect of masculinity through their claims to entitlement to women’s rights.

I think queer throry has developed in a very dangerous direction, and it is now being used in a way that completely ignores power structures and inequalities, as TRA’s by use of neo-queer theory, identify as the most oppresseed group ever. The concept of performativity never implied power structures had become obsolote, butarther gave us a tool for analysing how they are played out in practice, on micro levels of how men, women, boys, girls interact with each other, and meso levels of how institutions interact with people, and macro levels of states policies etc. It is a great shame that a useful tool for analysis has been highjacked to pretend power structures no longer exist, and obfuscate any talk of structural inequality and it’s effect on women and children.

LangCleg · 01/09/2018 16:45

Saving thread.

happydappy2 · 01/09/2018 16:40

The language we are supposed to use has been cleverly manipulated-transsexual is not cool-transgender much more palatable-trans kids is the cherry on top-neatly deflecting attention away from more dubious adult male behaviour. This is why women can see the danger so clearly

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2018 16:36

We’re not allowed to make any links between people who want to dismantle sex based protections for women and girls, and paedophilia.

Lord seems to have set up that link in the tweet in the OP. Is there any rule against citing what people have themselves said?

Freespeecher · 01/09/2018 16:28

I remember a few years ago a Times columnist (think it was Janice Turner though I'm not 100%) writing about going on to pro-paedophilia forums and reading their justifications, which were mostly along the lines of 'The Ancient Greeks...'.

This seems to be an updating of their debating position (though still extremely morally dubious).

HavingALittleBabyToolshed · 01/09/2018 16:25

WTF?

Thread saved as a PDF.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 01/09/2018 16:16

I think queer theory is, at best, a way for boring heterosexuals to get to go on pride marches and be victim tourists. It also enables them to get more credibility for their dim-witted sexist and classist witterings.

At worst, it's bloody dangerous and a predator's wet dream.

R0wantrees · 01/09/2018 16:11

Trying to understand Queer theory via Google - but I'm struggling. Can anyone offer a brief/simple explanation, please?

I think this is a central position to the theory?

I saw Nick Matte interviewed on a Canadian TV discussion which also included Jordon Peterson, he (?) was pretty difficult to follow.

First there was Jess Bradley, then the Challenors, now Edward Lord...
ShrodingersSturdyPyjamas · 01/09/2018 15:58

We’re not allowed to make any links between people who want to dismantle sex based protections for women and girls, and paedophilia.

No we certainly are not allowed to make any links between any trans 'rights' and paedophilia. Because there is no link whatsoever. In any way.

We would never dream of doing such a thing. AMIRITE?

hackmum · 01/09/2018 15:58

VickyEadie: "It's been clear to me from the beginning that some men (NB Mumsnet - I am not saying these are trans people) with extremely dubious, dangerous intent are slyly using the push for self-id as a Trojan horse."

I think it's worse than that. I think the move for self-ID is being driven by men who want to abuse women and girls. There are a lot of hangers-on - the woke dudebros and the handmaidens, who think that they're being super-cool by supporting self-ID - but the actual drive towards self-ID is coming from abusers. Because otherwise there is no need for it. Genuine trans-sexuals (ie people with gender dysphoria) for the most part don't want it. So putting women and girls at risk isn't an unfortunate side-effect of self-ID - it's the entire point of it.

carceralfeminist · 01/09/2018 15:56

Queer theory, is completely impenetrable and basically just a way for people to pretend they're intellectually superior.

In terms of trans - the argument is that the material (sex) isn't actually real/relevance, it's all about performance (gender).
It's all about the idea that there is no "normal," and the best thing to do is blur distinctions (queering).
Or something.

Basically it's a theory coming from Judith Butler. Not science. Just bunk.

LemonJello · 01/09/2018 15:55

I rather think this thread is going to go disappear

We’re not allowed to make any links between people who want to dismantle sex based protections for women and girls, and paedophilia.

It’s a shame Edward Lord obviously isn’t aware of the rules.

ShrodingersSturdyPyjamas · 01/09/2018 15:55

How long before safeguarding children is banned because its ...phobic?

It already is!

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