Misgendering.

The use of "they" is all about feeling special, isn't it? The truth is, we could all insist on being called "they" (after all, we're all non-binary when it comes to gender), and then that would instantly remove the specialness from it.

Funny how, despite the mention of feminism he doesn’t mention love for or solidarity with natal women. Ho-hum.

Edward Lord explained recently at Trans Pride Brighton:

"I am non-binary because I am a feminist; because I hate toxic masculinity; because I want to bring an end to patriarchy and misogyny; and because I feel love, affinity and solidarity for trans and queer siblings of whatever gender."

twitter.com/edwardlord/status/1020622342974734336

(left to right) Edward Lord & Gregor Murray

Both Lord and Murray identify as non-binary
Preferred pronouns are they /them

Both hold public positions and have/ had significant power & influence.

What have either of these two clowns done to justify their claims to specialness except make demands of others?
"I'm a feminist, I'm anti-patriarchy blah,blah,blah". But I'm not willing to actually give up any of my privilege - so I'll just demand that everyone use my chosen pronouns and there you go - job done, woke credentials established.

(left to right) Edward Lord & Gregor Murray

Both Lord and Murray identify as non-binary
Preferred pronouns are they /them

Both hold public positions and have/ had significant power & influence.

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3316098-Childrens-Convenor-Elected-Councillor-calls-women-cunts-on-Twitter-rants

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3332582-Trans-councillor-leaves-roles-after-threats-to-life

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323475-Surprise-The-Masons-now-welcome-Transwomen-but-not-women

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3320557-City-of-Londons-sneaky-Consultation-to-end-its-Single-Sex-Spaces-in-Sunday-Times

As with all of this, there are two things happening at once. One for genuine transsexuals, one for dominant men.

For the latter I totally agree that it's a powerplay and a demonstration of intimidation. But even for the former, their socialisation is impossible ignore.

How Bespin can claim that 99% of people gender them correctly without any pressure, when at the same time knowing that you will be thrown off almost every online forum for doing the same, is beyond me.

All it does is reinforce, to me at least, that power is exactly what it is. Because its denial is all part and parcel of it. It's gaslighting at worst and blind ignorance of privilege at best.

It is always about validation of a delusional belief. Why should anyone encountering someone who says something that is not true have to believe it too? I know that some people believe in something called God. I can be polite to them but if they wanted me to believe they were God, I would not do so..most of us are polite, but we are not going to validate the untruth that men are women or vice versa. It is not violence and for those of us that have been eg taken for male , in our lives, we mange to get over it as compared to the other stuff that happens to us as women it is a minor annoyance.

If a bearded bro in sparkly wellies demands that I remember that the correct pronoun is they and not he it is a demand for emotional labour.

I am supposed to work to override my natural reaction to what my eyes are telling me, to pay attention, to give importance to the emotional well-being of someone to whom I would not normally give one iota of brain space.

I will perform emotional labour for someone I care about, for someone I know, at work, or if I believe that misgendering would cause pain to someone who is genuinely disphoric.

But the person in the sparkly wellies and those like him can fuck right off. It’s purely a power game and I refuse to play.

It's quite difficult for a junior person or someone who doesn't like confrontation to challenge this, especially if someone does it multiple times and you would have to keep picking them up on it every time.

O think o have led a bit of a sheltered life!

I think it's quite common to do it on purpose Italian. It often is a power play.

MyWeaponofChoiceisWords awful if they are doing it on purpose. Bit pathetic of them really!

R0wantrees - that crimes are being reported as committed by women when they are is shocking. If it continues (taken to a logical conclusion), the data could then be used for agendas where people would like to demonstrate that women commit fewer crimes and that women's' prisons now contain more violent criminals, so a self ID opposite gender person would not benefit from being placed in a women's' prison.

Italiangreyhound
In the example I gave, yes I am sure. The person doesn't get other peoples' names wrong in the same meeting. They don't like me or the colleague (very long story) and there's a political thing between their organisation and ours. They do it repeatedly. If you could see/hear us it would be obvious they're doing it on purpose.
Obviously there are cases where people can't help it.
The point of example was my reaction to it - I haven't accused them of 'literal violence' by denying my existence by calling me colleague's name.

If I am in a working relationship/friendship with someone I think I would feel it proper and polite to either use their chosen pronoun or avoid pronouns altogether.

I doubt avoiding pronouns would be enough. Because it's about either controlling others or validation, often both. If you did this (and that is what I would do too btw) you would be signalling that you don't accept their "gender" and that's as far as you are prepared to go.

you have every right to misgender me

That's not true though is is? For example as a consequence of pressure from TRAs MN include as part of the new guidelines on this board:

"That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’."

If posters mispronoun someone on this board the post will be subject to reports, likely deleted and the poster potentially given a strike.
This refers not just to posters with whom there is a 'conversation' happening on a thread but also about the preferred pronouns a poster may not be aware of or a person whose identitity is a transwoman and has been in the national press for crimes involving their penis.
Similarly the press and police etc are required (or believe they are required) to report a person based on their gender identity and preferred pronouns as described in the recent petition started by Jean Hatchett:
(extract)
"British Transport Police are at present allowing some alleged criminals to self-identify as female when arrested. These alleged criminals are clearly not women as eye witnesses can testify. The crime is then recorded as a female crime and reported as such to the press. An example of this was recently reported widely in the tabloid press where many were shocked to see females in a video allegedly repeatedly stomping on a man's head. The man suffered a broken eye socket. Two police officers also received injuries. The bodies of the suspects appear to be male. The bodies of the suspects appear to be wearing dresses and wigs. Eye witnesses have confirmed that the bodies were male. But the suspects were recorded as female because they said they were.

This is against the codes provided in the Police and Criminal Investigations Act 1984. (continues)

www.change.org/p/charge-a-crime-as-a-male-crime-according-to-uk-law-not-by-self-identified-gender

I worry about all the claims of 'literal violence' because it seems to pave the way to expressing violence against others. Naming something non-violent as violent is manipulative.

However, I can really see that purposely using a pronoun a person has rejected if that person is acting in good faith seems manipulative too.

If I am in a working relationship/friendship with someone I think I would feel it proper and polite to either use their chosen pronoun or avoid pronouns altogether.

Of course I'd want to use their name correctly too.

Enjoy your hot choccy, Bespin.

BertrandRussell at Tue 14-Aug-18 20:37:42 - I totally agree with you.

In terms of people getting names wrong at work, are you sure it's really a power play, MyWeaponofChoiceisWords. I only say this becase I am hopeless with names! I am dyslexic and I have found if I get a person's name wrong at the start of a friendship, I find it really hard to ever get it right!

I can imagine how it could be very hurtful and embarrassing for people who are hoping they 'pass' as the opposite gender, feeling insecure and so on, and then if they are mis-gendered it might confirm their insecurities and be painfully awkward. (Oh god what if people think I'm a man, can I do this, do I look ridiculous, is this really me - all validated by an innocent 'he'...)
But I would hope/assume they would be understanding of people who did do it, as I would also hope/assume that people wouldn't deliberately misgender someone to embarrass or shame them.
But I'm not that fussed about pronoun usage really, I don't know why. It's just not one of the things that angers me about this whole debate.
I would call a transwoman 'she' if it made them feel happier. It doesn't mean I think they are a woman.

They're not forgetful - it's a power play.
Indeed. I've seen it happen with foreign names. "Oh how funny I can't spell/pronounce/remember that so I shall call you Sally instead" is quite common. Some people with hard to pronounce names happily shorten or anglicise them, but that's their call. You don't do it for them.
As for misgendering, I've had that all my life. 99% of the time unintentional. I ignore it mainly because if/when the other person realises, the awkward apologies are more uncomfortable for us both. Likewise any other parties present. Plus does it really matter if the person at the rail station ticket office calls me sir? I might never see them again.
WRT pronouns, I think if I knew someone wanted to be known as the opposite sex pronouns I'd play along out of politeness, but as for someone using the myriad of other pronouns, I'd avoid interacting with them entirely. I avoid interacting with people who deliberately seek to take offence at everything and super special pronouns are a big red flag.

I was repeatedly called the wrong name in a meeting last week. The person doing it has done it on previous occasions. The other name is my colleague. We're nothing alike and it's very annoying. Everytime, I correct them and they insincerely apologise then do it again.
They're not forgetful - it's a power play. They're trying to put me in my place, as they think I'm subordinate to them (I'm not).
I'm considering deliberately getting their name wrong and see how they like it 😠
Also get the Mrs Husband Name. Anything with that on it goes in the bin! It's denying my identity and saying I only exist in reference to a man.

Have I accused anyone of causing me violence? No. I complain and get on with it.

See now heres the thing if you had a genuinely held belief you wanted to be British infact you were applying for British citizenship then I would 100 support you in that after all we are great lol but I feel. you are not so until you do have that belief then let's not pretend it the same.**

What a load of bollocks. Anyone can have a genuinely held belief that they are British, but, unless they fulfil certain clearly defined requirements they are NOT. Even someone who was applying for British citizenship would NOT be British, and have mo right to describe themselves as British or to demand that other people call them British. Neither would they have the rights of British Citizens. They would have the same human rights as anyone else, but not those specific and exclusive to British Citizens.

Clear definitions. Your problem is that you reject clear definitions.

See now heres the thing if you had a genuinely held belief you wanted to be British infact you were applying for British citizenship then I would 100 support you in that after all we are great lol but I feel. you are not so until you do have that belief then let's not pretend it the same.

I'm sure you think that's a clever response. It isn't. I don't care whether you believe I am British or not. Toodle pip!

when you say misgender, what do you mean though? is it just being called the pronoun that applies to your actual and apparent sex? how can anyone argue with that?