People apparently support trans

ReluctantCamper Mon 06-Aug-18 19:16:19
"But transwomen are men Cassie. How do we tell the difference?"

No ReluctantCamper, that's not the case. Men are men. Trans men are men. Cis men are men. Gay men are men. Straight men are men. Trans women are not.

Is Mumsnet entirely run by GC ideologues?
Is there no room for a different point of view?

CassieBrighter Do you believe that humans can change sex?

RaindropsOnKittens43

So it doesn't matter to you how many women and girls are harassed, attacked and raped by men? We shouldn't do anything to prevent it?
That is nothing like what I said, I just applied your logic, which was that one attack is too many, to the rest of society. We protect people by having laws against attacking one another, no one has suggested repealing this laws. But if you apply a rule to the trans community that you'd consider an overreaction if it was applied to women, or even men, then that's not a rational reaction to a problem, it's hatred.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Mon 06-Aug-18 19:16:03
"We sex segregate when people are naked or otherwise vulnerable because most people prefer it for privacy and dignity. For women and girls, safety is also key. Males commit 98% of sex crime and there is no evidence that transition affects this. Anyone with a penis has no place in women only spaces."

I entirely agree with your position on MEN. I agree that they commit 98% of sex crimes and I believe segregating in vulnerable spaces is good.

I disagree with you in that I consider that trans women are not men.

ReluctantCamper Mon 06-Aug-18 19:13:47
"ah. women do it too. that old chestnut."

To whom is this replying? I most certainly never voiced such a position.

But transwomen are men Cassie. How do we tell the difference?

We sex segregate when people are naked or otherwise vulnerable because most people prefer it for privacy and dignity. For women and girls, safety is also key. Males commit 98% of sex crime and there is no evidence that transition affects this. Anyone with a penis has no place in women only spaces.

RaindropsOnKittens43
"So it doesn't matter to you how many women and girls are harassed, attacked and raped by men? We shouldn't do anything to prevent it?"

A. Yes, it does matter. (Whatever gave you the idea that it doesn't?)
B. Here's what we can do to prevent it: Men (not trans women) should not be allowed in women-only spaces.

Cassie, lots and lots of posters here do not have a gender identity. The GC view is that the gender system is a regressive box that stuffs people in boxes based on stereotypes than almost no one actually fits.

I appreciate that you believe very strongly in gender, but, as a religious person myself, I understand that you cannot reasonably expect everyone around you to accept your belief system.

There are many situations where women have won rights and protections which are sex based and not gender based.

Sport is sex differentiated because men and women are physically different and z male body has significant advantages over a female body.

Certain places are sex separated because women, by virtue of their sex, are generally smaller, weaker and, being possession of a vagina, vulnerable to rape and possible pregnancy.

Women face discrimination at work because of their sex - because they are perceived to be the main carer for children, because they are the sex which bears children (even if they never do, or never intend to, they are judged by their childbearing capacity and often held back)

There exist political women's shortlists because women face this endemic disadvantage because of their biological sex.

None of this is because they feel like women. It is because they are women, whether they like it or not, due to their biology.

This is not about toilets. This is about saying, yes, transwomen are as entitled to everyone else to be safe. The gender binary is a horrid system and I will work with you to dismantle it.

But these sex separations exist for a sex based reason, and I will not sacrifice the rights and safety of my sisters to do what will only reinforce the gender binary.

It's getting to the point were the only reason to have women's facilities is to validate transpeople s gender identity.

"Let's not have any laws and restrictions to protect anyone, people will only break them!" Killer logic there.

Perhaps others arrange their households differently, but the males who're in my domestic setting are well known to me and not strangers. Males I may encounter in public toilets, changing areas, etc not so much!

RaindropsOnKittens43

So it doesn't matter to you how many women and girls are harassed, attacked and raped by men? We shouldn't do anything to prevent it?

how many many women need to be attacked by transwomen before it's a problem for you? ... For me the answer is 1. How about you Cassie?

Well if we apply that logic, quite a few women have been attacked by women, in public toilets, but also at home, and in the street.

If one attack is too many, would you stop women using women's toilets, and being in streets and houses too?
I'm guessing no men should ever be allowed in a domestic setting either, because one attack is too many?

"My position is that allowing trans women into women's spaces -
a) makes sense, because trans women are women;
b) keep trans women safe from attack and/or harassment from men;
c) is a non-issue, as there has not been a problem of trans women attacking women"

CassieBrighter , have you genuinely not read and understood the objections to this, or are you one of those people who doesn't care?

Under self-id, 'trans' includes a massive range of people, who need not even look remotely like 'women' to claim they are women. They can be in full possession of all their original genitalia, not have taken a single hormone - not even have grown their hair or shaved their beards off.

Our point is that allowing self-id makes women's spaces open to any man who claims they are trans under the Stonewall umbrella description (NB Mumsnet - I am not suggesting in the slightest that genuine transwomen are predatory, I'm suggesting that they will be under as much threat by the men pretending to be or who are simply using the cover of self-id to enter women's spaces).

I looked everywhere for my gender identity, too - was it hiding in my pre-frontal cortex, playing peek-a-boo in my amygdala, tucked behind my kidneys, down the back of the sofa...? Nope, nowhere to be found - just like my soul is nowhere to be found. Because they're faith based beliefs, not biological facts.

I'm treated as I am as a woman based on the perception of my reproductive ability and notions of what that means about all of my other abilities.

(and FWIW, before you go down that road, I'm infertile following hysterectomy and years of gynae problems so I do not now, and never actually had any reproductive ability. The point is, I am of the sex class that generally does).

The men I know don't think TWAW either, bringincrazyback. But they're far more blunt about it than we are here. Far more.

Because the world isn't like this little corner of Mumsnet. Thank goodness.

Of the transwomen in prison here, about 50% are sex offenders. This is a very high percentage. I think it's 15% of all male prisoners are sex offenders but someone else is bound to know for sure.

CassieBrighter, there's plenty of evidence. You can say it never happens all you like. The facts contradict you. And these are only cases where a jail sentence was the outcome.

cassie how can you say everyone has a gender unless you mean gender = personality. I am not the same as anyone else, and I have no desire to be labelled as the same as anyone else.

Gender is just a way of society forcing conformance on people, which is why I reject gender ideology - it's regressive and damaging.

If you insist I have a gender then it's 'lurker33'. If you say it's anything else then you're invalidating my identity

I'm not sure service providers will be able to provide gender segregated spaces on that basis . Sex segregation makes much more sense.

Nah, not everyone has a gender identity. Everyone has a sex though, and it can't be changed.

I don't have a gender. I don't believe in gender other than as sex role stereotypes. My sex is female, that is all.

That's not the general understanding of gender though. Perhaps it is YOUR individual ideological stance. Everyone has a gender. In most people, gender is congruent and matching with their biological sex.

Cassie, this is quite clearly YOUR individual ideological stance.