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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

India Willoughby has had facial feminisation surgery

163 replies

gendercritter · 10/07/2018 14:46

Apparently in response to online trolls.

And do you know what, for the first time I feel sad for India. It looks like brutal surgery. India said India had it done to be accepted as a female but that is never truly going to happen, if people are being honest.

The thing that struck me in CBB when India was jabbing India's finger at the woman present and yelling 'I am a woman' was how male India looked. There was a shot taken from behind and I read what I saw as a man with a ponytail. There was absolutely no getting away from the fact you were seeing a male physique.

I am still capable of feeling lots of other things for this individual alongside sadness but I do hate to think of people being so ill at ease with themselves.

OP posts:
BettyDuMonde · 10/07/2018 23:18

Ha! Excellent tenuous claim to fame, one that can only be cashed in amongst a very select crowd of 1970s New York punk fans Grin

I absolutely adored Jayne. It annoys me that current mouthy TRAs likely have no knowledge of or interest in her, even though she was a trail blazer.

The night I saw her play at JoJos she spent most of the gig with a Sainsbury’s carrier bag hanging off her arm.

Good times.

terryleather · 10/07/2018 23:18

I liked your derail Yambabe...I'm now wondering who the 70s punk legend is..

Yambabe · 10/07/2018 23:14

Ooh a thread derail I can join in! Back in the day my brother auditioned to be the guitarist with Jayne County's band. They turned him down cos he looked too "normal" Grin

Which is ironic cos he now plays guitar for another 70s punk legend who has (sort of) transitioned........

And as a total aside and not-quite-so-off-the-rails I work from home and a couple of weeks ago I had "Come Dine With Me" on in the background. IW was a contestant. This was waay before the CBB stuff. IW didn't win.

Bespin · 10/07/2018 23:00

BettyDuMonde

no I can not imagine some of the old. film. stars being as popular today I think. we miss that diversity in what we consider beauty today

BettyDuMonde · 10/07/2018 22:53

Thanks Bespin I guess I feel the same - not necessarily a trans thing.

Personally I am a bit skeevy about all cosmetic surgery (and hyper aware of the risks of a general) but I’ve always had a curiosity re: FFS because I have a more prominent brow bone that most women (in old Hollywood parlance, I am probably what was once referred to as a ‘handsome woman’). I’d prefer a society where people didn’t feel the need for such brutal processes, but I realise it’s a hard ship to turn around.

Overall I worry that facial surgery is making humans more homogeneous than is desirable to my own aesthetic taste. Current movie stars all have pretty much the same nose, for example. Can’t imagine a Bette Davis type making it these days!

Bespin · 10/07/2018 22:30

BettyDuMonde yes like most plastic surgery it is more widely available and cheaper than it ever was so probably why it's more popular lots of surgeons are realising its a untapped market of people who. Will have multiple operations. I support anyone who wants and can afford it but it should not be the expectation that we need to have it

terryleather · 10/07/2018 21:44

Betty Thanks for posting that and I agree that's a great philosophy...but since I'm now menopausal and have fanny weirder I'm mostly about everyone fucking off rather than the fucking ...Grin

I didn't know Jayne had written a biography and will absolutely be checking it out so thanks for the recommendation.

BettyDuMonde · 10/07/2018 21:36

Bespin do you think FFS has gained a lot of popularity very recently? It seems that way to me (years ago there were very few practitioners, iirc)

Bespin · 10/07/2018 21:34

facial surgery is an interesting thing I have quite a few fiends who have had it and they are very happy with it and I think they look the best versions of themselves they can be. I have never had the money to be able to and to be honest it scares me looking at yourself and not seeing you so it's not for me. I didn't do all this to be someone else. but my friends I know are happy and it's lovely to see that

BettyDuMonde · 10/07/2018 21:30

TerryLeather Wayne/Jayne’s* music has actually aged surprisingly well!

m.youtube.com/watch?v=FNyUVlZ_amE

I bet Jayne would be horrified by all this cotton ceiling nonsense, she inspired my own sexual philosophy, ‘if you don’t want to f*k me baby, baby, f*k off!’ has saved me from many an unrequited heartbreak over the last 25 odd years.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=9FEH4dXjUkk

*not a deliberate misgender/deadname, Jayne happily responds to both seeing as his/her early career is under one name and her later under the other. Her biography is a riot, highly recommended.

SPOFS · 10/07/2018 21:29

I remember when India was in CBB and they mentioned that they were looking forward to the day when the housemates got their letters from home. India said that they hadn't spoken to their son for ages and were hoping to get a letter from him. I wonder why India's son is estranged from them?

ToadsforJustice · 10/07/2018 21:10

India will never be content with her looks or the way that people treat her. She thrives on the drama and will never be truly happy because that isn't what she wants. Being happy is like being perfect - it has nowhere to go for some.

Atthebottomofthesea · 10/07/2018 21:03

I saw TM when at someone's house, the sound was off, so I just had the header bar to go off. Having not watched BB and not having much interest in celebs I wouldn't recognise India anyway. But from the shots I glanced at on the TV she did look like a woman, if she was Karen formally known as Kevin who you walked past on the high street you probably wouldn't give a 2nd glance.

IW has played this out in public and to that end is being no more vilified than anyone else (well women mainly) who play their lives out in public.

terryleather · 10/07/2018 20:32

*Betty
*
I'd forgotten all about Jayne County!

^"You think that you're hot shit I heard, you ain't nothin' but a cold turd"
^
I thought that was the best line ever when I was a teen goth...I feel very old.......

GardenGeek · 10/07/2018 20:24

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 20:20

November 2017 interview with India Willoughby re self id & changing rooms.

On the thread discussing it OP wrote:
"Saw this clip of India Willoughby with another transgender woman call Talulah. They were discussing, on This Morning, the implications of the Top Shop policy on gender neutral changing rooms.
From my point I think it's a bit ridiculous that a shop that caters to, mostly, young girls and woman needs space for men identifying as woman - that day/moment.
India was giving arguments that I've heard woman use. I think she really believes she is a biological woman and that others are "pretenders" and so uses arguments that, so-called, TERFS use which I find interesting.

However, I think India has a phobia for hair on either women or men - she didn't like the idea of sharing space with a hairy transgender, she's said in the past women with hairy legs are disgusting and dirty. She does have a thing for the hair smile

Also, why didn't This Morning has a natal woman on to discuss the issue that, after all said and done, effects natal woman and girls."

cf India's comments in the Pink News article posted earlie:

"I totally get why many women might have concerns about this, given there have been so many ridiculous over-the-top debates where the scenario of sex-offender in a dress is trotted out.

It just doesn’t bear up to scrutiny though. Honestly. Self-identification in no way incentivises someone to commit a sex offence. It doesn’t make it easier or more likely.

Waving a piece of paper or shouting “I’m a woman” is not going to buy any leniency from the police or courts.

I admit – I wasn’t convinced about self ID myself to begin with, but the evidence from around the world is irrefutable. I was categorically wrong, and fell for the hysteria."

gendercritter · 10/07/2018 20:04

what India as had more facial surgery well good for her if it will make her happier

As long as India is aware it doesn't make India female.

No adaptation that a man makes to himself is ever going to. I feel like India doesn't understand that. They are chasing something that is unobtainable. I feel like this has mostly been done for validation which will never be forthcoming - like I said, that is very sad.

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BettyDuMonde · 10/07/2018 19:13

The fact Pete Burns stayed Pete all his life, despite knowing plenty of trans people* suggests not - but then, he came of age when there tons of very cool GNC men all over the place. The surgery thing was an awful shame though, he was utterly beautiful when Dead or Alive were in their heyday.

*I met him at a Jayne County and the Electric Chairs gig at Madam JoJos. Jayne was an out and proud transwoman.

R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 19:13

Love Miranda Yardley and her ‘Are you high’ responses to deluded lunatics on twitter!

Miranda comments:
'Why I Am Permanently Banned From Twitter And Why This Should Make You Worry
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

attributed to George Orwell

I have been permanently banned from Twitter. The reason for this ban is given as follows:

'Violating our rules against hateful conduct.

You may not promote violence against, threaten or harass other people on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, religious affiliation, age, disability or serious disease.' (continues)

It’s interesting the rules about what is hateful appear not to extend to one glaringly obvious category – biological sex. And it is this that reveals the real agenda that lies behind this curtailment of freedom of speech and the ability to state the truth:

This is not about me. This is part of a much larger, broader attack on the rights of women.

If women are now no longer able to publicly acknowledge that an adult human male is a man, this takes away from women the ability to describe their own lived lives: they can no longer use meaningful language to describe their interactions with members of the dominant sex class:

Women lose the language and ability to differentiate between themselves and the dominant sex class;
Women lose the language and ability to describe themselves even as women;
Women lose the language, right and ability to describe the perpetrators and acts of sexual violence;
Women lose the right to challenge the sexual enslavement and exploitation of members of their own sex class.
We are in a world of proscribed truth and compelled thought. Whatever your political stance, this should should strike you cold with terror." (continues)

mirandayardley.com/en/i-permanently-banned-twitter-make-worry/

R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 19:05

Can you imagine another newsreader / celebrity being interviewed about anything without also being asked as an aside, about their article in which they characterise Mumsnet being akin to the National Front / Nazis etc?

I have no interest in what India looks like but I do think that words matter. There's a huge amount going on in that article. India was/is a journalist, so are those conducting the interviews.

Hmm
ChardonnaysPrettySister · 10/07/2018 18:58

I read an article about facial feminisation in the Times Saturday Magazine.

It's brutal. Apparently there is a bone ridge above the occipital bone which need to be shaved down, and the jaw needs slimming down and the Adam's apple shaving.

There were photos, but many of the examples just would not pass, and quite a few kept their genitals.

I have not seen a photo of India post FF surgery, so cannot comment whether India would pass.

It just seems. well, brutal for some questionable benefits.

placemats · 10/07/2018 18:54

India looks way better with darker hair.

It's India's personality that needs feminising.

AtreidesFreeWoman · 10/07/2018 18:51

As far as I'm aware Pete Burns never questioned his biological sex....

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 10/07/2018 18:50

IW says: Trans groups are more than happy to debate any subject Justine or her murky corner of the web wants – but the material on the site isn’t a discussion. It’s vicious, nasty persecution.

And yet trans groups never turn up to debate. Individuals turn up every so often but it's fair to say they never engage in what I'd recognise as debate, just make bald, unconvincing assertions. If their arguments are so persuasive why aren't they here to put their case?

We know why, and they do too. If you scrutinize their arguments they fall apart. As @Mogleflop said on another thread if you can't articulate what you mean, it's hard to discuss it.

Hence the attempts to silence critics, hashtag nodebate and suchlike.

MrBig1 · 10/07/2018 18:49

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