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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Safeguarding girls and protecting women post Jimmy Saville & #metoo

544 replies

SpareRibFem · 09/07/2018 10:59

I don't understand, there was a lot of hand wringing after the revelations about Jimmy Saville became widely accepted. #metoo there was more handwringing about the need to listen to women when they are telling you something that makes you uncomfortable.

Saville was allowed to get away with what he didn't because he created an aura of fear and people would afraid of the backlash if they spoke up. Those that did suffered.

We were promised something like that could never happen again...

And yet now despite many women and girls saying they feel afraid and uncomfortable sharing single sex spaces with someone with a penis weren't told we're bigoted and verbally abused for saying that. Our employers are contacted and told we're bigots, we're doxxed.

And organisations like girl guides are going still further in saying it must be kept a secret when girls are being forced to sleep and change with a male bodied teen with a penis (& teen levels of hormones) and I'm not even allowed to identify what sex that male bodied teen with a penis is on a public forum

Girl Guides are taking that approach despite the knowledge that abusers use secrecy and shame to their advantage.

Just like with Saville anyone who excesses concerns is shouted down and accused of being the person in the wrong by the powerful. There is a culture of fear now. Celebrity voices in particular (thinking people like Munroe Bergdorf, Stephen Fry and long list of others) are given more weight to shout down women's concerns. Male bodied people feelings are paramount despite almost all sexual abusers being male bodied (and most of the tiny tiny number of female bodied sexual abusers working with and being in thrall to a male bodied abuser)

Did we as a society learn nothing from Saville & the multitude of other abuse scandals that women and children/girls should be listened to, that celebrities voices help hide abusers, that telling girls to keep secrets from their parents about the presence of penises in their bedrooms and changing rooms and showing them they will be blamed and abused if they transgress and tell someone creates an environment where abuse can flourish.

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 11/06/2019 14:46

You can't FOI outsourced companies.

That means you can't FOI to see how many 'incidents' there have been with a particular company.

Thats an accountability and safeguarding issue right there.

LangCleg · 11/06/2019 14:38

In addition to other (brilliant) points made here about the charitable industrial complex, I also think that outsourcing and austerity combined has resulted in a blurring of the boundary between public services and charitable activities.

Should charities really be providing services that most people would see as the responsibility of government? Or only the "optional extras" as it were?

I am not a fan of outsourcing in public services or functions. I think it reduces public accountability even without infiltration of a mediating class to take all the well paid charitable jobs without a proper understanding of the services provided.

I think it's time we renewed the conversation about public service and the third sector in toto.

LangCleg · 11/06/2019 14:30

Here is the fostering thread on Twitter that was on a now deleted FWR thread:

twitter.com/MartinBarrow/status/1137007634366828544

Excerpts:

The National Association of Fostering Providers lobbies on behalf of ‘independent’ foster care providers, ie those not part of local authorities.

The NAFP is recognised by LA children’s services and has a seat at the table whenever policy is discussed by government.

I have analysed every member company’s accounts (where available). After many hours of fun, I can reveal that NAFP members are earning profits in excess of £100 million a year

R0wantrees · 11/06/2019 14:21

It feels like there's systemic safeguarding issues everywhere

There are & what is being seen is partial view of the consequences of systemic failures & failings.

RedToothBrush · 11/06/2019 14:04

I find it striking just how many of these charities are going directly against the principles and purpose for which they were set up.

Instead of stopping the problem, in many respects they have often become the problem.

I find it disturbing, and almost as if they have been deliberately hijacked because they were so effective at their jobs that the only way to combat that was almost through infiltration or as deliberate vehicle of misuse due to their status and a lack of internal oversight. The halo effect, if you will, whereby only the good can support them and to criticise is to commit a sin cos 'won't you think of the children'.

JustAnotherWoman · 11/06/2019 14:04

There are systemic Safeguarding issues within the aid sector

It feels like there's systemic safeguarding issues everywhere and that MN users are doing the job investigative journalists should be doing

R0wantrees · 11/06/2019 13:47

May 28th 2019

BBC 'Amnesty loses five bosses after report on 'toxic workplace'

(extract)
"Amnesty International is to lose most of its senior leadership team after a report said it had a "toxic" workplace.

The human rights organisation's secretary-general, Kumi Naidoo, ordered an independent review after two employees killed themselves last year.

In the review one staff member described Amnesty as having "a toxic culture of secrecy and mistrust". (continues)

There were reports of managers belittling staff in meetings and making demeaning and menacing comments, for example: "You should quit. If you stay in this position, your life will be a misery."

There were multiple accounts of discrimination on the basis of race and gender, and in which women, staff of colour, and LGBT employees were allegedly targeted or treated unfairly.

The report also pointed to an "us versus them" dynamic between employees and management. (continues)

www.bbc.com/news/uk-48431652

R0wantrees · 11/06/2019 13:42

BBC

(extract)
The Charity Commission said some of the organisation's failings amounted to mismanagement, prompting the regulator to issue Oxfam GB with an official warning.

The report, which follows an 18-month investigation, found the charity failed to heed warnings its culture and its response to keeping people safe were inadequate.

"What went wrong in Haiti did not happen in isolation," Charity Commission chief executive Helen Stephenson said.

"Over a period of years, Oxfam's internal culture tolerated poor behaviour, and at times lost sight of the values it stands for."

www.bbc.com/news/uk-48593401

= systemic Safeguarding framework failure

RedToothBrush · 11/06/2019 13:34

The thing that scares me is the whole thing sits with the 'liberal elite' narrative which really does open politics up to exploitation by the far right in the absence of proper discussion and dissection of the issues going on. And its why those who are challenging it in the apropriate ways are being smeared as being in league with the far right.

Just seen the headlines on BBC news about Oxfam. The headline suggested they got a slap on the wrists. Nothing more.

nauticant · 11/06/2019 13:29

The Radio 4 report made that very clear. But those with the power to do something don't really want to reform it because it is the destination of choice for so many of the Establishment.

R0wantrees · 11/06/2019 13:18

It'll be spun but as I hear it Oxfam was covering up sexual abuse of children by its staff. Among other disgraceful practices

There are systemic Safeguarding issues within the aid sector.

R0wantrees · 11/06/2019 13:17

YY Red

WIthin charity sector, aid & development, schools, care etc a raft of employees with no frontline/Safeguarding knowledge but who have focussed on policy/brand/networking etc thus interacting with media & politics.

Those on the frontlines with knowledge and focus on Safeguarding, care etc have been systematically hindered by austerity.

A small number of people have been enjoying profits, lifestyle & power whilst absolutely failing to protect those children & vulnerable adults their organisation was set up for.

There's massive systemic failings.
Harm has and is being done.

nauticant · 11/06/2019 13:15

Listening to coverage of the Charity Commision's report on Oxfam. It's on Radio 4 now.

It'll be spun but as I hear it Oxfam was covering up sexual abuse of children by its staff. Among other disgraceful practices.

RedToothBrush · 11/06/2019 13:08

R0wantrees if politicians had a better understanding and put a higher value on safeguarding would we be in this mess? It covers a huge range of issues.

If the media hadnt been weakened and become more interested in comment and the cult of personality rather than investigative journalism would we be where we are?

What's worse is the number of politicians (both at local level and at Westminster level) and media barons / celebrities who have a financial interest in these outsourced companies.

There is a profound conflict of interest.

R0wantrees · 11/06/2019 13:04

Listen out for the Charity Commision's report on Oxfam's Safeguarding failures out today.

"letting down everyone including victims & whistleblowers"

Prioritisation of corporate branding over Safeguarding children & vulnerable adults.

There's a great deal which will continue to come out.

R0wantrees · 11/06/2019 12:57

RedToothBrush, have a look at the comments by social workers, parents etc under the CC article above.

All desperate to Safeguard & describing being hampered by the system & CQC.

R0wantrees · 11/06/2019 12:55

Commercial interests before safeguarding. Carried out in the name of austerity.

It enabled a small number of developers/speculators to extract a great deal of funding.

Sustainability of services, the needs of the service users & the training/retention of experienced staff will never be the the priority.

RedToothBrush · 11/06/2019 12:50

R0wantrees my point exactly.

Commercial interests before safeguarding. Carried out in the name of austerity.

And we wonder why our society is fragmenting politically along the lines of those who have economically and those who don't.

RedToothBrush · 11/06/2019 12:48

From 2015:

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/c642439c-dfa1-11e4-a6c4-00144feab7de
Northamptonshire council takes outsourcing to different level
Council transfers 4,000 workers to four service providers, leaving just 150 core staff

A Conservative-run Midlands county council is blazing a trail for providing public services in an age of austerity.

Northamptonshire is reducing its core staff to 150 people by transferring 4,000 employees to four new service providers, which will be part-owned by the council, paying dividends, but managed like private sector companies

Hmmm... 🤔

R0wantrees · 11/06/2019 12:47

Something isn't right here. I don't know what. I don't know why. But the pieces of the puzzle don't add up, and politicians don't necessarily seem to be asking the right questions. Nor does there seem to be any accountability here. Especially given the status of the council.

I don't know, but there are many councils in financial trouble on the brink of bankruptcy. I know my own council was talking about a blackhole of 50 million in social care which they didn't have the money to cover.

A massive amount of money has been spent on private care.
There is less awareness of the private residential care provision for Looked After Children.

Community Care article:
"Ten staff members arrested following BBC Panorama footage showing abuse at learning disability hospital
There has been a ferocious reaction to the abuse depicted on last week's BBC programme, which has been directed at providers, commissioners, government and the regulator"
www.communitycare.co.uk/2019/05/23/reaction-panorama-programme-abuse-learning-disability-hospital/

RedToothBrush · 11/06/2019 12:27

@LangCleg

In answer to your comment in the dog whistle thread which got closed yesterday - about the twitter thread on profit making out of in care children whilst the public sector care system is just completely out of money; I hadn't seen that but it's in keeping with a number of articles on the same subject (I think I linked a couple here).

I've also just seen this article about the deaths of two toddlers.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/mps-blast-failings-council-after-16498845.amp?__twitter_impression=true
MPs blast 'failings' by council after two toddlers murdered in 6 months
Two-year-old Dylan Tiffin-Brown and one-year-old Evelyn-Rose Muggleton both died in horrific circumstances

Last week a serious case review found "serious weaknesses" in Northamptonshire County Council's safeguarding practices at the time of the murders in late 2017 and early 2018.

Shadow Local Government Secretary Andrew Gwynne raised an urgent debate in the Commons yesterday.

Northamptonshire Council is particularly concerning because its the council that went bust - and has been placed in special measures. And hasn't had local elections since as a result of its bankruptcy.

I also note this:
Tory MP Sir Desmond Swayne said Northamptonshire had the "most expensive children's services in the county", asking: "So funding wasn't an issue, was it?"

I personally be really interested to therefore know how the services were structured and who was getting what. Was it all in house, or was a lot of care being out sourced - thus allowing the Tory MP to argue that the department was being well funded. If a lot of care was outsourced, and not going to the front line at the expense of children whilst other in house services such as directly employed council services where more neglected and / or a general culture wherein safeguarding procedures themselves were not the priority, I'd be concerned.

Simply saying the services had plenty of money, misses the point. You can't just look at the financial alone without looking at the human side of it.

Something isn't right here. I don't know what. I don't know why. But the pieces of the puzzle don't add up, and politicians don't necessarily seem to be asking the right questions. Nor does there seem to be any accountability here. Especially given the status of the council.

I don't know, but there are many councils in financial trouble on the brink of bankruptcy. I know my own council was talking about a blackhole of 50 million in social care which they didn't have the money to cover.

This ultimately doesn't come done to party politics. It comes down to whether social is happy to allow a situation where abuse is almost inevitable due to lack of consideration and oversight of safeguarding as a priority and how funding is a key element of that. Its not about purely how much money goes in, but how its spent and who benefits from it.

The word corruption is one that gently sits simmering towards the top of this whole debate. Who is being seduced by money, to turn away from abuses of the system and the weakening of safeguards. From Stonewall, to the NSPCC, to the councils outsourcing care, its all about corporate profit and corporate image over the proper purpose of the organisation. Whose pockets are getting lined. And as I say its supported by both the left and the right and are guilty in their own ways.

LangCleg · 14/04/2019 09:25

Transgender Trend summation of safeguarding breaches in lobby group material going into schools including:

ï‚· Promising confidentiality to a child
ï‚· Parental Alienation
ï‚· Promoting use of off label drugs and minimising harms
ï‚· Erosion of sexual boundaries

www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Safeguarding-Concerns-Transgender-Schools-Guidance.pdf

Thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3559214-Transgender-Trend-Schools-Guidance-Safeguarding-Concerns

R0wantrees · 06/04/2019 14:45

additional comment which is especially relevent to this thread since it centres the needs of girls in need of robust Safeguarding & Child Protection.

ChickenonaMug Sat 06-Apr-19 13:25:42 wrote:
"Thank you everyone for the flowers.

I really am so worried about the impact that all this will have on girls and young women who have been sexually abused. There is a direct conflict of needs and rights that needs addressing and the NSPCC really should have been the ones with the understanding and ability to address it. Because they are not acknowledging the issue then it means that all the other organisations think that if the NSPCC aren't acknowledging an issue, then they do need to try and understand or address the issue either.

The NSPCC really are completely failing abused girls.

I could write so much on this by drawing on my past. I respect a person's need to identify themselves as they do. However, one of the most important things that a groomed and abused child must learn is that they have the right to recognise someone else as they need to in order to assess risks and safeguard themselves. To a sexual abused girl the recognition of a person's sex is absolutely fundamental and even more than that will probably become part of her instinctive and trauma-based response. I can not help reacting to males not matter what I do and no matter how they identify. This does not make me or any other girl/women abuse survivor, transphobic or bigoted.

I am at a point in my life where in most circumstances I can walk out if a situation makes me feel uncomfortable but a school girl in a mixed sex toilet or changing room or who is sharing a tent with a male on a Girl Guides trip does not have the chance to just walk out. Compound this with the fact that so many of these girls will not speak out for so many reasons (fear, shame etc) and you will have an entirely vulnerable and deeply suffering girl. Even worse is the fact that these girls will often be very good at hiding their distress and suffering. I was very good at not drawing attention to myself and appearing as though everything was fine, both during the years that I was abused and also in the years that followed.

To understand the trauma response that sexually abused girls might feel in the years following the abuse I can only say that for me that it got worse when I felt at risk and many situations with males could provoke that. Also the feelings that occur and the many nightmares that I had feel very much being abused and raped all over again. The NSPCC should know this and not be ignoring these girls or contributing to making their recovery harder.

These needs and rights of these girls should not be ignored simply because they are have no voice. My anger at the NSPCC is because they are the ones who should be representing and amplify their voice.

I am trying my best to represent the voice of abused girls in all this but it is not easy obviously. Unfortunately I am not being properly listened to by the likes of Girlguiding and I have been pretty much told by my MP that the mental health needs of transgender people are so great that they therefore are the most vulnerable in this, with the implication being that abused girls are just going to have to deal with it. My MP was also very rude to a friend who went along on the second occasion to support me.

I do not feel particularly hopeful at the moment for how this is all going to turn out for abused girls. This is all a clear demonstration to me that they are the bottom of the pile, yet again."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3551084-The-NSPCC-arent-right-about-this-are-they?pg=9

Angryresister · 06/04/2019 14:25

Agree...fantastic post from chickenFlowers

R0wantrees · 06/04/2019 10:15

This powerful & eloquent post from the thread above identifies the significance of fundamental Safeguarding failures & the impact on vulnerable girls & women failed by frameworks & organisation intended to protect:

ChickenonaMug Fri 05-Apr-19 23:38:49 wrote:

I am so upset by the whole attitude of the NSPCC, as a women who was sexually abused for many years of my childhood, I feel utterly betrayed by them. I am disgusted that they can make money from adverts about, and the public's concern for, girls who are experiencing sexual abuse and then turn around and imply that there are no concerns when these very groomed and traumatised girls are forced to share spaces with males.

Girls who have been groomed and abused will often have very poor understanding of boundaries and how to assert them, and whilst they are desperately learning to develop and assert them they should not be expected to ignore or override them in order to be kind or inclusive to males (even those who identify as girls or women).

Equally, these vulnerable girls (who will often feel unable to speak up at all) should not have to suffer the really awful effects of their trauma responses, which will often occur when they feel especially vulnerable around males. Using a mixed toilet or changing room, or a single sex toilet next to a male who identifies as female, will often be very distressing.

A child with fragile boundaries or real fears about speaking up and asserting them will be particularly vulnerable to inappropriate sexual behaviour from her peers or other males. I know this because alongside the years of sexual abuse and rape from an adult male relative, I also was subject to inappropriate sexual behaviour from two male class mates, when I was about ten, on at least two or three occasions.

The NSPCC is letting vulnerable girls, and in fact all girls, down in the most horrific of ways. Their input into this has resulted in groups, such as Girlguiding and British Gymnastics, coming up with policies that also seriously ignore the wellbeing and safeguarding of girls and also remove a safe space for these girls, in which they might have started to recover or build resilience.

Amongst other things the stance that the NSPCC has taken in this will undoubtedly, in my mind, result in abused girls who will now find it far harder to recover and intergrate into society. I can not stress enough the importance of being able to rely on single sex spaces in allowing me to negiogate a path through life, especially in my teens and twenties.

The NSPCC is completely failing sexually abused girls and as I wrote at the beginning it has often been adverts that have been about abused girls that have brought in the money for them. And their directors' salaries are not small. I feel that women and girls like me have been used by them and then our needs ignored and abandoned. The NSPCC disgust me.

Also, I have watched despairingly in the last few hours as the NSPCC have thanked people on twitter for their messages in which they have called the women raising valid concerns: bigots and transphobes.

To the NSPCC, I do not care what I am called I will continue to do what I can to ensure that the safety, wellbeing, recovery and social integration of sexually abused girls is not impacted by policies or practices that do not consider their needs and rights. Balancing the rights of vulnerable children was always going to be extremely difficult, but the NSPCC should have properly acknowledged this and then helped other organisations to understand the different conflicting needs and their impact within a legal and safeguarding framework and subsequently come up with appropriate solutions. The NSPCC could have led the way with this and done what was expected of them but instead..."

Flowers all due to Chicken