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Original poster

Safeguarding girls and protecting women post Jimmy Saville & #metoo

544 replies

SpareRibFem · 09/07/2018 10:59

I don't understand, there was a lot of hand wringing after the revelations about Jimmy Saville became widely accepted. #metoo there was more handwringing about the need to listen to women when they are telling you something that makes you uncomfortable.

Saville was allowed to get away with what he didn't because he created an aura of fear and people would afraid of the backlash if they spoke up. Those that did suffered.

We were promised something like that could never happen again...

And yet now despite many women and girls saying they feel afraid and uncomfortable sharing single sex spaces with someone with a penis weren't told we're bigoted and verbally abused for saying that. Our employers are contacted and told we're bigots, we're doxxed.

And organisations like girl guides are going still further in saying it must be kept a secret when girls are being forced to sleep and change with a male bodied teen with a penis (& teen levels of hormones) and I'm not even allowed to identify what sex that male bodied teen with a penis is on a public forum

Girl Guides are taking that approach despite the knowledge that abusers use secrecy and shame to their advantage.

Just like with Saville anyone who excesses concerns is shouted down and accused of being the person in the wrong by the powerful. There is a culture of fear now. Celebrity voices in particular (thinking people like Munroe Bergdorf, Stephen Fry and long list of others) are given more weight to shout down women's concerns. Male bodied people feelings are paramount despite almost all sexual abusers being male bodied (and most of the tiny tiny number of female bodied sexual abusers working with and being in thrall to a male bodied abuser)

Did we as a society learn nothing from Saville & the multitude of other abuse scandals that women and children/girls should be listened to, that celebrities voices help hide abusers, that telling girls to keep secrets from their parents about the presence of penises in their bedrooms and changing rooms and showing them they will be blamed and abused if they transgress and tell someone creates an environment where abuse can flourish.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Tackytriceratops · 09/07/2018 20:12

ThanksThanksThanksThanks Sarah

R0wantrees · 09/07/2018 19:56

There are systemic failures which have played the more significant role.

Caribou58 · 09/07/2018 19:49

What's more horrifying to me is that all those f*king agencies and people supposedly paid and employed to "safeguard" children are complicit in the wholesale dereliction of their duty by putting children in harms' way by not doing any, i.e. zero, impact statements, in any organisation, of the consequences of relaxing sex-segregated spaces.

There has been no organisational learning since Savile. Predators stalk their targets where children and vulnerable women collect. So what are they doing to safeguard them? Answer: relaxing the historic safeguards. That's a huge DARVO the size of a mammoth.

This is an international scandal of epidemic proportions. It's as though women and children don't exist - or exist only for their use and abuse by men.

When I was still in teaching, safeguarding had been a massive issue for some years (following various scandals of the 'this must never happen again' variety - of course, it has happened again and will continue to do so). I've been astonished by what's happening in organisations - like schools, the guides, etc - where leaders must still get DBS clearance (although of course, all the clear DBS 'proves' is that the person has never been caught for anything) - that they're now blithely turning the blindest of blind eyes to this horrific potential for abuse.

boatyardblues · 09/07/2018 19:48

Organisations that want to change society and work with children must operate with openness, support democratic values and most critically, have the safeguarding of ALL children at the heart of everything that they do.

This is why Girl Guiding’s lack of transparency and attempts to shut down questioning are so alarming. Massive, massive red flag. If I had daughters, there’s no way on Earth I would allow them to join the Guides at this point in time.

Whenever there is a climate of fear and secrecy about raising a concern you can be sure there is a problem to be concerned about.

A very astute observation.

QuarksandLeptons · 09/07/2018 19:11

Thanks for this thread OP and to all of the insightful posters.
Sarah I am so sorry about what you went through. Flowers
I can’t imagine how it must feel now to see the same structures still in place that will allow abuse to happen again.
And the reaction to girls clothing by the people at your daughters school are shocking.

SpareRibFem Pomo means post modern a branch of philosophical thought which ...
(Taken from brittanica)

“in Western philosophy, a late 20th-century movement characterized by broad skepticism, subjectivism, or relativism; a general suspicion of reason; and an acute sensitivity to the role of ideology in asserting and maintaining political and economic power.”

Basically it says there is no objective reality. Which as theories go, is intellectually interesting but as a practical way to live life and run a civilised society it’s useless in my opinion, as it allows bullies to dictate what version of ‘reality’ everyone else has to live by

R0wantrees · 09/07/2018 18:37

@TomFarr10101 wrote:

"Hi all,

Some months ago I published this article about Gender self-ID that seemed to go down very well on mumsnet.

medium.com/@tom_farr/the-left-are-abandoning-women-and-in-doing-so-abandoning-everything-they-stand-for-51fd63457d8c

Thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3206756-Labour-are-abandoning-women?

I've just published this article, focusing on the effects pornography has on cultivating relationships, specifically amongst young children. I worked closely with leading academic Gail Dines on it, and her organisation Culture Reframed is aimed at engaging parents when it comes to the health crisis of pornography. The article is below anyway, any I hope you enjoy it if you do read it. Any questions, please feel free to ask away.

medium.com/@tom_farr/the-porn-industry-offers-us-a-glimpse-into-the-future-and-the-future-looks-very-bleak-indeed-86eeac0d229

Gail will be speaking in London on Weds 18th July, details of tickets etc can be found in the article."

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3292203-The-Porn-Industry-Offers-Us-a-Glimpse-Into-The-Future-and-the-Future-Looks-Very-Bleak-Indeed

Original poster
SpareRibFem · 09/07/2018 18:35

What does Pomo mean Confused

OP posts:
LangCleg · 09/07/2018 18:25

See Jessica Eaton's work

Yes. Eaton's work opposing the showing of videos depicting abuse and victim blaming to abused children is absolutely emblematic of this: useless people who are imposing harm on the very people they are employed to help. "I identify as good therefore I must be right".

R0wantrees · 09/07/2018 18:23

Tonight's Panorama: 'Trump: Is the President a Sex Pest?'

"Donald Trump has been accused of sexually inappropriate behaviour by more than 20 women, but he has dismissed them all as liars. Now one of those women is suing him for defamation. An American court will have to decide what really happened and whether the President of the United States is a sexual predator. So what is the truth about Donald Trump's behaviour towards women?

In the week of his visit to Britain, reporter Richard Bilton investigates new allegations about Mr Trump and meets the women who say the president is a sex pest."

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bc6cm8

LangCleg · 09/07/2018 18:23

The video I posted of Heather Heying today (that can also be listened to as a podcast as an hour long) shows her talking about the factors that led younger people to adopt the pomo line and how it is affecting many workplaces now. She makes some interesting points

I've placemarked that to watch later! Glad I did now.

R0wantrees · 09/07/2018 18:21

They have completely lost sight of their service users -who are the most vulnerable people in the country, including children.

See Jessica Eaton's work: Victim Focus

twitter.com/Jessicae13Eaton

Safeguarding girls and protecting women post Jimmy Saville & #metoo
OlennasWimple · 09/07/2018 18:13

Applauding everything said on this thread

Flowers for Sarah

womanformallyknownaswoman · 09/07/2018 18:09

*adversely affecting many workplaces by silencing people

womanformallyknownaswoman · 09/07/2018 18:08

This is why I keep banging on about elite social closure and the pomo takeover in the liberal academy.

The video I posted of Heather Heying today (that can also be listened to as a podcast as an hour long) shows her talking about the factors that led younger people to adopt the pomo line and how it is affecting many workplaces now. She makes some interesting points

LangCleg · 09/07/2018 18:01

when combined with the third sector this makes for a perfect storm

Yes. This is why I keep banging on about elite social closure and the pomo takeover in the liberal academy. Posh graduates who are left (I use that word with circumspection but you know what I mean) leaning are funnelled via elite social closure into high level third sector jobs and bringing their pomo fever with them. I know it seems a niche point but it really isn't. They have completely lost sight of their service users -who are the most vulnerable people in the country, including children.

Original poster
SpareRibFem · 09/07/2018 18:00

Just as a reminder for anyone new to the thread I'm not saying trans people are like Jimmy Saville.

What I'm saying is after everyone realised how much he'd got away with by keeping people from discussing concerns openly we would supposed to be able to discuss safeguarding concerns openly in the future. And yet today changing rooms and sleeping arrangements for children and teens are changing such that anyone with a penis can share as long as they state they are a girl/woman no one is allowed to express a concern without being shouted down as a bigot so we are back into an era where people are afraid to raise safeguarding concerns particularly where transgender people are concerned.

And if anyone doubts there is a problem we know of one case where a mother tried to talk about her daughters school to an MP because the girls were upset about a trans girl with a penis who masturbated whilst watching them shower and they were accused of being transphobic rather than anyone in authority addressing the safeguarding concern.

But I'm quite sure by drawing the safeguarding silencing analogy someone will be along soon to call me disgusting without reading what is meant Sad actually I'm slightly surprised the usual suspect she haven't been along yet.

OP posts:
enoughisenough12 · 09/07/2018 17:46

The silence about what is happening from social workers is incredible. How on earth do they compute the contradiction between everything they know about how abusers operate and what is happening at the moment - groups trying to undermine specific safeguarding principles - every one of which we have because of terrible things that have happened to children.

Safeguarding is meant to be everyone's priority but somehow it is being diluted - medically, in schools and organisations and in the rest of society. I suppose it just shows that no matter what governments say, when wealthy groups run by people with a complete disregard for children and women and a determination to pursue their own narcissistic wishes, they get what they want.

Offred · 09/07/2018 17:11

That’s good to know lang!

It’s particularly a problem in the third sector I think....

It is an entire sector built on reputation, competing for grants, low oversight of staff/volunteers etc... Look at MESMAC, it’s constitution was abusive from the start...

There are problems with this in any organisation and people should always be aware of it, particularly public authorities where there is a culture of certain people being beyond scrutiny and the organisation being infallible - the police, the nhs, schools but when combined with the third sector this makes for a perfect storm, particularly if the service users have no voice or are abroad.

LangCleg · 09/07/2018 16:59

Its significant, I think, to examine the ways in which refective practise in social work and health has been hampered/ de-valued and the consequences of this.

It absolutely is.

R0wantrees · 09/07/2018 16:48

LangCleg
Its significant, I think, to examine the ways in which refective practise in social work and health has been hampered/ de-valued and the consequences of this.

LangCleg · 09/07/2018 16:32

Lisa tells the story that a teacher on her social work training told the class that statistics said that at least one of the class was there in the hopes of getting into a position where they could abuse women or children. And that the sooner they learned to incorporate that into practice and reflect on similar power relationships, the better the social worker they would be.

R0wantrees · 09/07/2018 16:29

Lisa Muggeridge on the neccesary and inevitible Safeguarding debate:

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=39&v=zV-ZOi8qu60

Lisa Muggeridge comments at: idgeofreason.wordpress.com

recent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3284251-Lisa-Muggeridge-Suspended-by-Twitter-and-Quoting-her-breaches-MN-Guidelines

Also recent thread, OP LangCleg wrote:
"Event in Leeds August 1st:
Here's the event page:

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/correcting-a-blindspot-women-talking-tickets-47717202437

And here are the topics and speakers:

Kate Belgrave will be discussing the impact of public sector cuts and how difficult it is to get media attention to focus on the systems at stake.

Lisa Muggeridge will be discussing the policy makers, academia and media view of our benefits system, systems that protect from violence, child protection and social care.

Miranda Yardley will be discussing female erasure.

Claire Graham will be comparing two sets of statutory guidance for schools, to illustrate the impact of this blindspot.

We have supplementary speakers from fields including child protection and domestic, campaigners against the Spearmint Rhino in Sheffield, and people who want to discuss the managed zone in Holbeck.

Related Facebook page:

www.facebook.com/Correcting-a-blindspot-Women-Talking-1739047042869701/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3296082-Correcting-a-blindspot-Leeds-meeting-organised-by-Lisa-Muggeridge-and-others

Offred · 09/07/2018 16:20

The general public needs to stop assuming that people in authority are ‘good people’ even if they do ‘good work’ - look at aid workers, another open secret, more protecting of organisations and reputations... I have known about aid workers for years, LOADS of people have...