Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

Bowlofbabelfish
Do you believe humans can change sex? It’s a yes no answer - it’s not answered in the non bolded text above.

The answer was in the none bolded text, I have answered this question 4 times and my answer will stay the same.

In my answer I am using the term SEX to mean biological sex, as determined by sex chromosomes, genes, primary and secondary sex characteristics. I am using the term GENDER IDENTITY to mean a persons internal sense of gender.

Do you believe humans can change sex? Transsesxual people do not change sex, they are the sex matching their gender identity so, No they do not change sex. Sex is complex and not binary Transsexuals or people diagnosed with gender incongruence have a different unconscious development of the mind that aligns their sense of self and their sex with their gender identity, therefore they have not changed sex.

Humans cannot change sex (see clarification above) but they can change some of their secondary sex characteristics, they cannot change their unconscious core identity: sexuality, gender identity, they are not 100% male or female but a combination of both sexes which develop dependent on chromosomal and hormonal influences.

Transsexuals who transition to live as the opposite binary sex to that assigned at birth do not change sex they ‘are the sex’ that matches their gender identity, the causes of this are still unknown or unproven but some research into brain function is pointing to a similarity in transsexual brains that align with brain functions of those with a matching gender identity, similarly the causes of sexual attraction are unknown.

You're no scientist, Hilary. Your position is faith based. It's unsupported by reality.

Tradition belief based on ideology and science have clashed in the past on the proposition of the earth and its position in the universe.

Mariners have known for millennia that the earth isn’t flat, but this is rather rather ironic because the trans ideology (that sex is ‘complex’ and non binary) is a faith based position. not a scientific one. The idea of blue brains and pink brains and ‘born in the wrong body’ has zero basis in science. It’s faith based, it’s basically Cartesian duality with a touch of homophobia. Now if you’re a believer in souls then that’s your right and your business. I’m not, personally but I’m not going to tell someone religious they can’t believe that.

So I’m afraid you’re Pope Urban on this one, and I’m Galileo.

Can humans change sex?

It’s just you appear to be saying that ‘sex is complex and not binary’ and then that you’re all for evidence based science.

Those two positions are contradictory. Do you believe humans can change sex or not?

I’m confused over whose words are who’s.

Do you believe humans can change sex? It’s a yes no answer - it’s not answered in the non bolded text above.

Bowlofbabelfish

I clearly answered your question in my post HilaryMGSDC Mon 09-Jul-18 01:46:58
Prawnofthepatriarchy
Hilary, you say: What I did say is that transsexuals are the sex that matches their gender identity.
No they're not. Human beings cannot change sex. Transsexuals remain their sex at birth, just like everyone else.

Sex/Gender is complex and not binary!

Yes that is what I said, and you are agreeing with me that transsexuals remain the sex they were born as. ie the one that matches their gender identity.

Now I realise that this is difficult for some to grasp or understand as it challenges their believe. But as the human race progresses and evolves things can and do change.

I know that change is never easy, if we take a look at another topic which I hope we can agree on as an example of resistance to change.

Tradition belief based on ideology and science have clashed in the past on the proposition of the earth and its position in the universe.

Some people believed the earth was flat, that the earth was the centre of the universe and the sun went round the earth. Even when science proved this belief to be incorrect the majority did not believe them. It took time for the progressive ideas to overcome the traditional belief as it was opposed to their ideology.

We still see examples of this in the world today with religious opposition to homosexuality and transgender rights. I am not saying all religions appose these rights but some do.

I am a believer of factual evidence and progressive change when it comes to treatment of people and the human rights of the individual to live their life.

R0wantrees

The treatment of young people diagnosed with Gender Incongruence is developing as research and practice drive knowledge of treatment models based on outcomes for the individuals concerned.

Up to early puberty for the majority of those children who show gender non-conforming behaviour the watch and wait approach is appropriate, but this is not the case for children who meet the diagnosis of gender incongruence, for them watch an wait can be harmful.

We know that taking no action leads to poor outcomes and harm, which can lead to difficult choices in adulthood, with resulting conflict of gender identity and expectations of society possible transition in later life or isolation, depression and the harmful aspects of poor mental health and wellbeing, self harm and suicidal thoughts. If we wish to avoid the above we need to find the appropriate action which currently is affirmative support to ease transition to the sex/gender that matches the gender identity of the individual concerned.

Practice developed across the world by specialist working with young people who's gender identity is opposite to the gender assigned at birth and who meet the diagnosis of gender incongruence have found that affirmative support through the use of prefered names and pronouns, social transition with the provision of medical intervention in early puberty has proved to give a positive outcome for those involved.

Obviously studies over a lifetime need to be concluded to give a full picture of outcomes, but studies of outcomes for Adults who who meet the diagnosis of gender incongruence have proved satisfactory for most involved.

I believe the above informs the view of the majority of peoples from the transgender/ transsexual community and those who support equality for all with access to the most appropriate treatment being available. We all want to see the best outcomes for everyone, not to limit options available for those who need a specialist treatment care parthway.

Hilary, you say: What I did say is that transsexuals are the sex that matches their gender identity.

No they're not. Human beings cannot change sex. Transsexuals remain their sex at birth, just like everyone else.

Hilary

I recognise that I’m banging the drum somewhat, but do you believe humans can change sex?

This question is critical. Because we are being asked to take a course of action based upon believing the answer is yes, when nobody is willing to say the answer is yes.

I find that very troubling.

HilaryMGSDC

If you are in agreement with Dr Polly Carmichael's position, you may wish to challenge some of those so opposed to it.

Dr Carmichael recently gave a speech at the 'Next Steps for Transgender Equality' forum, June 4th.

There was some hostility to her /GIDS approach during her speech as seen on the twitter hashtag #WSPFEvents.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3268237-Westminster-Social-Policy-forum-today-Next-steps-for-transgender-Equality-WSPFEvents

R0wantrees I have previously listened to the Dr Polly Carmichael, lecture, and agree with her that not all gender non-conforming children develop gender incongruence, but a small number do and it is this small group that needs the support to prevent harm.

Only the individual concerned knows the reality of how they see themselves to be, what their true identity is, and the way they wish to be seen. Others can only try to support them.

HilaryMGSDC

Have you listened to Dr Polly Carmichael's lecture? There is a link above.

NewbieSpartacus
You're not dispelling worries Hils you're just repeating yourself. You still haven't explained what you understand to be gender ie what many of us would say is a social construct. You are therefore missing a crucial step in the logic when you say transsexuals are becoming the sex that matches their gender identity. You can't mash your body into becoming your idea of a social construct. Sex isn't changeable. Hope that allays your misgivings.

I Thought I did dispel the worries that I would not answer a question about sex!
When you say I have not explained what I mean by Gender, what use of the term gender are you referring to? if you explain what you mean by you use of the term gender, i will try to explain how gender relates to my use of gender identity.
Also to clarify my statement and remove your spin, I did not say that transsexuals are becoming the sex that matches their gender identity.
What I did say is that transsexuals are the sex that matches their gender identity.

James Kirkup Spectator article May 1st 2018, Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?'

"This is an issue addressed by Dr Polly Carmichael, who runs the GIDS, in a recent talk to the Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health. In her thoughtful hour-long lecture, she said this:

“The rapid rise in the number of assigned females…. exemplifies the importance of keeping discourse open and allowing different voices to be heard.

“You might say the increase in the numbers of assigned females coming forward is [because] that it’s easier for females to talk about their gender-diverse feelings so what we are seeing is an increase in awareness getting towards a better representation of the true prevalence of this among females.

“A converse explanation, a question: are there issues for young women around how they perceive their gender? There has been a worry by some that people who would previously have had an outcome around sexuality are now having an outcome around gender.”

(In other words, these are girls who do not readily identify with the predominant idea of femininity and are sexually attracted to biological females, and who would, a decade or two ago, have grown up to consider themselves lesbians.) Dr Carmichael’s conclusion:

“The truth is we don’t know, but we need discussion in order to be thinking about what this could mean.”

The embedded link to Polly Carmichael's lecture 'Developments & Dilemmas' is here

Also from the article:

In evidence to another Commons inquiry in 2015, Mermaids argued that GIDS should make such drugs available much more quickly. The GIDS team has generally resisted that call, more than once saying that “any decision around hormone treatment needs time and considered thought.”

And in evidence to that earlier committee, Dr Bernadette Wren of the GIDS said this:

“I know that Susie and Mermaids would like a fast track so that young people who are already well into puberty and feel that they know that they want to move forward into physical intervention would bypass our assessment process and move straight into physical intervention. We feel that is not an ethical way to practise.”

Here’s another summary. A transgender charity that says it is engaged in lobbying lobbied politicians and doctors to change the way children are treated by doctors. The doctors declined to make that change because it would be not be ethical to do so." (continues)

1If a child has severe gender dysphoria which brings on depression etc, they are not healthy and it is medically appropriate and ethical to treat the root cause of their acute distress.

My DS was suicidal for months. He had a therapist Via CAMHS. His life was at risk. Even so, he had to see a consultant child psychiatrist just to get antidepressants prescribed. Because they can be dangerous.Let that sink in,Snappity.

I am using the term SEX as biological sex as determined by sex chromosomes, genes, primary and secondary sex characteristics.

I am using the term GENDER to mean Men, Male or Women, Female or Non-Binary Gender.

Men, male, women, female are SEX categories, based on the characteristics in your definition of sex. The corresponding gender categories would be masculine and feminine. Non-binary gender would then just be someone who feels neither masculine nor feminine, or perhaps sometimes one and sometimes the other.

I am using the term GENDER IDENTITY to mean a persons internal sense of gender.

So whether they feel themselves to have a masculine or feminine personality? Or a bit of both? Or neither?

Slight correction to the last paragraph in my previous post. The paper doesn't say that children identify with a gender - it says that they identify (that is, recognise) their own and others’ sex. The use here of sex and gender as synonyms means that they call this recognition of their own sex and that of others 'gender identity or labelling'.

Slaby and Frey (1975) demonstrated that children move through a series of stages: first learning to identify their own and others’ sex (basic gender identity or labeling)

HilaryMGSDC
In an answer to OldCrone I am stateing the conclusion of people working with child gender development is that children are aware of the gender they identify with by the age of 3 to 4 years old.

Did you actually read that paper, and think about the language and terminology they were using?

The reason it's important that they don't distinguish between 'sex' and 'gender' is that the meaning of 'gender identity' changes according to whether you are using 'gender' as a synonym for 'sex' or to represent the social and cultural expectations of someone of a particular sex.

In the paper, they use gender as a synonym for sex, so the term 'gender identity' means simply that the child has an understanding that they belong to a particular sex, which is based on their genitalia.

The paper does go on to say some quite interesting things about children's understanding of sex and gender - how they go through stages of realising that some things are 'for girls' and some 'for boys', a fear that they might change sex if they digress, a later realisation that they can step outside gendered expectations without negative consequence. There's obviously a lot more to it than that if you read the whole paper.

I see you now agree with me that people use sex and gender interchangeably to mean male or female.

Of course I am aware of that, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem. In the context of this paper, it means that children being aware of the gender they identify with by the age of 3 to 4 years old just means that they know what sex they are (based on their genitalia). Is that what you mean by 'gender identity'?

If a child has severe gender dysphoria which brings on depression etc, they are not healthy and it is medically appropriate and ethical to treat the root cause of their acute distress.

No it is not. The ethical route is to treat them in a way that doesn’t physically (or mentally) damage them.

Puberty blockers - damage
Cross sex hormones - damage
Telling a child their normal, healthy body is ‘wrong’ - damage

Telling a child they’re not the problem, society’s insistence of narrow gender stereotyping is the problem and helping them come to terms with their healthy body - ethical.

Snap if a child is suffering from depression you could also begin by treating the symptoms, rather than jumping to conclusions about the cause. To go straight to hormones is draconian. There are other routes that don't have irreversible effects.

It’s is grossly unethical to place a healthy child on puberty blockers.

If a child has severe gender dysphoria which brings on depression etc, they are not healthy and it is medically appropriate and ethical to treat the root cause of their acute distress.

You're not dispelling worries Hils you're just repeating yourself. You still haven't explained what you understand to be gender ie what many of us would say is a social construct. You are therefore missing a crucial step in the logic when you say transsexuals are becoming the sex that matches their gender identity. You can't mash your body into becoming your idea of a social construct. Sex isn't changeable. Hope that allays your misgivings.