Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

Most of the transwomen I speak to feel unsafe using any gendered facilities and they prefer not to access them unless absolutely necessary.

Would they be happy if the men’s went unisex and the women’s remained single sex? If not, may I ask why?

If the women’s goes unisex, any man can enter, and harm our hypothetical transwoman. And women using the facilities - is this disadvantage to the many for the benefit of the few acceptable? If so why?

If our hypothetical transwoman is using the ladies so that they have a lower chance of being attacked, even though men can now enter, they are effectively using the women in that facility as a human shield - do you understand why women do not find that acceptable?

Why are you not campaigning for safe third spaces? Why are women being put at risk from men?

HilaryMGSDC
Why do you think adults are trying to demedicalize the care pathway for transsexual health care?

Are you not aware of the current government consultation on reform of the GRA? The proposed changes, to make changing of legal sex a matter of simply making a declaration, with no medical diagnosis, implies that being transgender is simply a lifestyle choice, with no need of any medical treatment.

If the law is changed, this will apply equally to transsexuals, who might benefit from medical treatment, as well as the people the changes are designed for - those who wish to 'live as' the opposite sex, but do not wish to make any physical changes to their bodies. If being trans is not an illness, as Theresa May put it, it doesn't require any medication. It is possible that this is one of the aims of the GRA reform, to reduce pressure on the NHS.

OK, so gender expression is just appearance, presentation, personality. Fine.

Gender Identity I still don't understand.

You said:

GENDER IDENTITY
Our sense of identity in relation to gender, how we see ourselves as a gendered person, Man, Woman, Neither, Both.

This doesn't help me to understand what you mean, so I found this definition that you gave earlier:

I am using the term GENDER IDENTITY to mean a persons internal sense of gender.

In order to understand this definition we need a definition of 'gender'

Yours is:

I am using the term GENDER to mean Men, Male or Women, Female or Non-Binary Gender.

This definition is unsatisfactory, since men, male, women and female are sex categories, not gender categories. Non-binary gender is some sort of gender but is not defined at all.

I don't know what my gender identity is, or even if I have one. What should I do to work out what my gender identity is or whether I have one at all?

Materialist

Of course I condemn all Hate Crime / Incidents whoever they are aimed at. Any threat should be reported to the Police on 101 or 999 if life is in danger. I regularly ask people if they have received threats of violence or abuse and encourage the reporting of such acts. Unfortunately it is members of the trans community who are most at risk and suffer abuse on a daily basis just for being themselves and trying to get on with life.

If you are wondering how I know this, I do voluntary work for the police.

Most of the transwomen I speak to feel unsafe using any gendered facilities and they prefer not to access them unless absolutely necessary.

Bowlofbabelfish

The organisation I work for does not promote any action, we advise people to follow the advice of the professional health and wellbeing services that manage the individual care pathways for transsexuals and trans people, be that NHS or Private health care. There is no one size fits all package of treatment for trans people.

Why do you think adults are trying to demedicalize the care pathway for transsexual health care? Every one I talk to would like trans health care improved not removed.

R0wantrees
What do you think about the book Trans.

OldCrone
I think you are mistaking gender expression with gender identity and they are two separate things
GENDER EXPRESSION
Gender expression encompasses all the ways you present yourself that are governed by gender norms, which, as you likely now realize, is just about everything. Clothing, mannerisms, gait, pitch of voice, language choices, pronunciation of language, posture, grooming, social interactions, and much, much more all go into what we would merge together in our minds to be an individual’s gender expression.
HOW PEOPLE USE GENDER EXPRESSION
Gender expression can be a way of demonstrating your gender identity, but it can also be an intentional way of rejecting your gender identity. It can align with the gender norms attached to your biological sex, or not. It can be driven by your want to conform, your want to rebel, sexual or relational desires, or something else altogether.

GENDER IDENTITY
Our sense of identity in relation to gender, how we see ourselves as a gendered person, Man, Woman, Neither, Both.

.

Yesterday, I started reading a recently published book, 'Trans: Exploring Gender Identity & Dysphoria- a guide for everyone (including professonals)' edited by Dr Az Hakeem.

www.drazhakeem.com

He has written the introductory chapters.

Source:
www.amazon.co.uk/TRANS-Exploring-Identity-Dysphoria-Pulling/dp/1911246496?tag=mumsnetforum-21

It’s my view that trans people are fighting the same battle. Trans non-binary people are acting by challenging the binary model of gender, prevalent in western culture, by forming gender identities outside the binary and asking for legal recognition. Trans binary people also support the freedoms you are looking for by their challenge to societal controls on sex/gender.

But that's not the same battle at all. By 'forming new gender identities' they are reinforcing the idea of gender. And by pushing for legal recognition of these new genders, reinforcing it still more.

We all have a sex - male or female. Many (most?) of us do not conform at all times to conventional male or female stereotypes, which I think makes most of us 'non binary'. This has no effect on our sex - we are still male or female.

If trans binary people could just present as they wish, but without insisting that they had changed sex, that would be in line with the feminist view. You can't change sex, but be whatever gender you want - it's called personality.

I think you are mistaking gender expression with gender identity and they are two separate things.

Can you define both terms clearly so that I can see the distinction?

In your gender critical view of the world, once you achieve you aims, what would the future reality look like for the observer?

Everyone presents and behaves how they wish, but we all know what sex we are. A bit like the 80s... I know that is opening me up to accusations about being regressive, but I really think people were more progressive in their thought then, in terms of gender.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3304870-What-does-the-transgender-community-make-of-1980s-androgenous-pop-stars

Hilary do you worry that your organisation leaves itself open to legal action in the future by encouraging affirmative, irreversible treatments for minors?

What do you think about the way adults are pushing for demedicalisation for adults but increased medicalisation for children?

Does your organisation support confidential disclosure? If so, how do you square this with child safeguarding practice in the UK (I assume you’re UK based.?)

Bowlofbabelfish
Do you have any medical or scientific qualifications?
I have no medical qualifications, as for scientific qualifications I have many professional qualifications that could cross over between scientific, engineering and health and wellbeing.

I do not prescribe or promote any treatment, I leave it to the professional experts to design & manage care pathways to alleviate harm for their patients.

OldCrone
Hilary, I think the main reason we have different views on this is because of the importance attached to the notion of gender by transgender people
We gender critical feminists want to smash the binary because it is harmful. Not reassure people that they can pick some from the female menu and some from the male menu. It is a classic example of how transgenderism (which is really just genderism) reinforces the gender binary over and over again.
I understand your view is that you wish to smash the restrictions you see to be imposed by gender. I to as a feminist and socialist, wish to see through social justice the barriers and controls of women’s rights, and the rights of all, to be changed through equality and equity of opportunity.

It’s my view that trans people are fighting the same battle. Trans non-binary people are acting by challenging the binary model of gender, prevalent in western culture, by forming gender identities outside the binary and asking for legal recognition. Trans binary people also support the freedoms you are looking for by their challenge to societal controls on sex/gender.

The opposition I hear from gender critical feminists is that those trans people dressing and performing in a gender stereotypical way are supporting the gender binary model and the limits to equality that imposes. I think you are mistaking gender expression with gender identity and they are two separate things.

In your gender critical view of the world, once you achieve you aims, what would the future reality look like for the observer?

Pratchet
Hilary, there's no such thing as having an opposite sex brain in your body. Transgenderism disproves the theory of uniquely male or female brains.

I have never said there are uniquely male of female brains. Gender is complex and not binary, there are many gender identities both within and out of the binary model, so I do not understand your point.

hilary I have a few questions of my own, since I answered yours

Do you have any medical or scientific qualifications?

are you aware of the ICH GCP good clinical practice guidelines and their historical context, being introduced in the wake of atrocities such as the Nazi medical experiments, Tunguskee syphilis experiments and scandals like thalidomide?

do you understand the prescribing guidelines for, for example GnRH analogs, the side effects, the damage they do and that they are being prescribed not only off label but against the recommendations not to prescribe to any person with coexisting mental health issues*?

And finally - are you worried about being sued or prosecuted criminally in the future for being part of a body that pushes these drugs on minors against all current ethics and safety guidelines?

Sarah
Is the article you are referring to the one I linked to? It wasn't all the details of the psychoanalysis that I thought was interesting, it was the results of the author's patients 'deconstructing' gender by analysing what it is and how it affects their lives:

I have however also noticed that once gender is deconstructed within the microsociety of my group, that hardly any of the trans-gender patients go on to pursue physical reassignment procedures. It could be understood that if there were no gender, there would be no need to change it.

Which is sort of making the same point that we are.

Those who transition within the binary just wish to live and be accepted as their true gender, (matching their gender identity). Those who's identities are not within the binary just want to be able to be legally recognised as Non-binary Gender.

Hilary, I think the main reason we have different views on this is because of the importance attached to the notion of gender by transgender people. I don't think I can improve on what Sarah says about the gender critical view:

We gender critical feminists want to smash the binary because it is harmful. Not reassure people that they can pick some from the female menu and some from the male menu. It is a classic example of how transgenderism (which is really just genderism) reinforces the gender binary over and over again.

Transgender people find gender roles restrictive, so they want to move between them and re-label themselves. Feminists find gender roles restrictive, so we want to do away with them altogether, and everyone to just be themselves, without the requirement for labels.

To answer the question I put to you regarding experience, it was because I believe if you worked with, listened to and tried to understand trans people you would have a better insight into why I say conversion therapy is wrong for those diagnosed with gender incongruence.

I'm the CEO of a LGBTQI organisation and have over 45 years experience of working to support LGB & Trans,NB,Q people from teens to 70+, this work has given me a greater understanding of the trans community and gender identities both within and out of the gender binary.

Working with individuals with gender incongruence gives you a better understanding of the issues they face while trying to live what they would describe as their authentic lives. Those who transition within the binary just wish to live and be accepted as their true gender, (matching their gender identity). Those who's identities are not within the binary just want to be able to be legally recognised as Non-binary Gender.

I cannot see how being trans is any different to any other gender or how this could upset anybody else. Live and let live is my moto.
Peace and love Hilary

I'm not a fan of psychoanalysis at all Place one so don't like that article. It is the mansplaining of psychology. Hilary I've watched that guy's TED talk now. Thanks for sharing. He comes over well at first but by the end he's basically saying "gender isn't binary; There's a scale. In fact there are two scales.., a scale of femininity which is Associated with the female sex but not always and a scale of masculinity which is Associated with the male sex but not always and most of us draw from each" Now then I wonder what we might call these TWO opposing scales. These two separate scales from which we all draw. If is a classic example of reverting to a binary way of interpreting personalities. We gender critical feminists want to smash the binary because it is harmful. Not reassure people that they can pick some from the female menu and some from the male menu. It is a classic example of how transgenderism (which is really just genderism) reinforces the gender binary over and over again.

Materialist
It's a language game, that's all it is. There's no science.

I think that's exactly what's going on. We're talking about two different things. We're talking about science, they're talking about re-defining words and making laws.

The question "Can humans change sex?" has a different meaning if you have redefined sex to mean gender, or legal sex.

The bit I'm not sure about is whether by redefining the word 'sex', they think that they have actually changed scientific reality. I don't think we should underestimate the scientific illiteracy of many people.

But seeing as we're on Mumsnet, maybe Hilary can explain how babies are made in pomo land.

Then they’re getting biased advice (which I believe is also grossly unethical) from what are essentially pressure groups, not unbiased evidence based voices

Questions are being asked about the influence of lobby groups. There will be more questions.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/labour-and-tories-finally-see-the-truth-about-the-gender-debate/

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

www.heraldscotland.com/news/16311379.schools-forget-girls-in-rush-to-adopt-pro-trans-guidance-campaigners-claim-as-christian-group-threatens-legal-action/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3298016-John-Bercows-rant-about-Gender-Critical-women

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3250175-Girl-Guides-Panel-discussion-at-Speakers-house-woman-male-woman-male-male-male

Are there 2 factions in medical sciences? I just don't understand how doctors give the kids the hormones.

I don’t either. I don’t think there are two factions, that sound too equal. There are always people who go into medicine to play god. I’ve taught hundreds of medics over the years and you can pick them out at 19. 95% of the class are genuine, hardworking and in it as a vocation. The other 5% should never be allowed near a patient.

There are always medical Mavericks - some do great stuff, others don’t have good motives.

The point about trials is an excellent one - I’m actually just on maternity leave but once I’m back I’ll be pressing that point (before if the opportunity arises) . I’m fairly sure it’ll be dealt with efficiently - the stakes are too high and screening processes very very strict.

I know.., this is what I was saying about it being as though there’s a forum somewhere with people going ‘right, rumbled on the can’t change sex thing, no one is buying that... ok let’s try ‘always been that sex, see how that flies.’

I’m a bit wary of addressing individual parents. I’m not a medical doctor, I can’t give medical advice, and I also believe that 99% of parents are genuinely trying to do the right thing. They’re navigating something they have no experience of, that there’s no real research or experience in. It must be horrendous for them. Then they’re getting biased advice (which I believe is also grossly unethical) from what are essentially pressure groups, not unbiased evidence based voices. I’m happy to provide my opinion or any data and/or explanation or jargon for any parent etc wanting to know, I just wouldn’t want them to feel like I was targeting them or implying they were failing their kid. It’s a genuine minefield :(

Agree totally that there needs to be people standing up. Problem is those who do will be hounded so it needs to be someone who isn’t going to lose their livelihood over it. I’m trying to think... Ben goldacre is generally fairly scathing of poor logic, maybe worth a tweet at him?

I don’t hold out much hope: years back, someone I knew wastgreayened for using mice in their research (for cancer, said mice were extremely well treated and humanely pit down at the first sign of illness.) we hoped CRUK would come out with a statement along the lines of ‘ look no one likes using animals, in the uk we have serious regulation, and this work is needed and saves lives.’

They didn’t, of course because they’d be targeted (this was the time all the awful shit at Huntingdon life sciences was going on) and people were being physically hurt/bomb threats.

It’s a tough one.

I’ll argue with Hilary all day or anyone else on here who comes in with all the science word salad.

I know, but it is a starting point for many TRAs arguments, even if not always acknowledged. Would be interesting to ask scientists, politicians etc to comment.

Yeah but transgender studies is a social science not a science R0wen.