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Original poster

Reality check

385 replies

Pratchet · 28/06/2018 06:54

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

Reality check
OP posts:
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10
AngryAttackKittens · 30/06/2018 11:55

It's better than "I'm a vegetarian who eats fish", which always used to make me make the confused face.

R0wantrees · 30/06/2018 11:53

I always find that pork goes well with setting good boundaries and not wasting time on pointless conversation.

No piggy accompaniments here AAK, we are pescatarian bbqers (unless joined by guests who prefer meat)

I've always rather regretted the term as it can sound... well a bit Hmm!

It also puts me a bit betwixt and between as happened on a previous thread and its Hitler/vegetarian discussion:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3230887-IW-compares-MN-to-the-National-Front-and-Nuremberg-Rally

I may go catch some trout (from a troutfarm nearby so not a great a challenge)

LangCleg · 30/06/2018 11:51

Ooh, what are you thinking of making? I always find that pork goes well with setting good boundaries and not wasting time on pointless conversation.

I have sent the DH into town to the butcher's. The negotiated agreement was that I got to drape on the sofa fanning self and he got to get in the hot car and go to the hot town but also to choose what we barbecue. I feel I got the good end of this deal.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/06/2018 11:49

IF MNHQ is in a banning frame of mind then an instant ban for any man posting goady comments on rape threads would lovely.

FermatsTheorem · 30/06/2018 11:41

Ooh, lucky you, Waddle, jousting is great fun to watch.

I have to admit there are some posters (mostly male, identifying as men) who, when I clock their user name, I just scroll straight past their post (usually a wall of text intent on "educating" the poor feeble minded wims) without even reading. Because I know from previous experience it will be complete tosh, and I'd rather engage with posters who have something interesting (and hopefully succinct) to say.

Ereshkigal · 30/06/2018 11:40

its not wanting to deal with [you'll have to use your imagination at this point ...ive no idea how to word the next 10/15 words with out being deleted]

I feel your pain Rufus!

AngryAttackKittens · 30/06/2018 11:38

As a fine old Mumsnet tradition "goady fuckers" is still allowed, right?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 30/06/2018 11:25

e just doesn't see any point in engaging with certain people and has very politely asked that they respect this

I know other people have mentioned this but someone having a problem with what lang is doing seems a bit, well...weird!!

Its nothing to do with not wanting to debate...its not wanting to deal with [you'll have to use your imagination at this point ...ive no idea how to word the next 10/15 words with out being deleted]

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 30/06/2018 11:24

I'm chopping down a tree. It got too big.

I am leaving any uneaten berries out for the birds though. I can't cope with violent blackbird squabbles in the courtyard all day any more...

Also - bread in the oven. Happy days.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 30/06/2018 11:17

AAK Grin i have underappreciated pork!

AngryAttackKittens · 30/06/2018 11:03

Ooh, what are you thinking of making? I always find that pork goes well with setting good boundaries and not wasting time on pointless conversation.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 30/06/2018 10:52

We will be watching jousting today Smile

Waddlelikeapenguin · 30/06/2018 10:50

Ereshkigal
If you're referring to Lang, I think her approach is quite mentally healthy, actually. She just doesn't see any point in engaging with certain people and has very politely asked that they respect this.

I agree, i think it's just the same as when people on relationships threads are advised to go low/no communication with certain people who are not a positive in their lives.

FermatsTheorem's free speech post is also very clear-
You've still got your free speech, you've just been so ill-judged in how you've used it that no-one listens any more and you might as well be screaming into the void.

R0wantrees · 30/06/2018 10:49

I'm perfectly fine and cheerful and am enjoying the fine weather. I'm thinking of a barbecue later

I was just thinking the same....

LangCleg · 30/06/2018 10:47

If you're referring to Lang, I think her approach is quite mentally healthy, actually. She just doesn't see any point in engaging with certain people and has very politely asked that they respect this.

Indeed. Nobody worry about me! I'm perfectly fine and cheerful and am enjoying the fine weather. I'm thinking of a barbecue later.

Bespin · 30/06/2018 10:47

Ereshkigal my point was in general as sometimes this debate can be all encompassing and does impact on people's mental health setting yourself boundaries is. A good idea

Ereshkigal · 30/06/2018 10:40

Make back, if you find that hard then posting on a public forum is maybe not the best thing for anyones mental health

If you're referring to Lang, I think her approach is quite mentally healthy, actually. She just doesn't see any point in engaging with certain people and has very politely asked that they respect this.

Ereshkigal · 30/06/2018 10:28

In fact some people might say that continually coming here and posting the way you do, derailing discussions and constantly interrupting when women are speaking is rude.

This. This is a board to talk about women's rights. We don't go on to trans boards and shit them up.

R0wantrees · 30/06/2018 10:10

There are accepted and long established conventions on Mumsnet with regards quoting in bold and @ ing.

Recognising and using these appropriately contributes to civil discussion throughout the site.

Bespin · 30/06/2018 10:05

While I can respect not at ting someone which I don't do when someone told me. What it did I find it hard not to use or reference someone when they have posted a point or quote it in a reply as a way of short hand or making it clear the point I am trying to. Make back, if you find that hard then posting on a public forum is maybe not the best thing for anyones mental health. Which is import to think about when things can get personal on Here at times.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/06/2018 09:57

People should have the right to speak. There's no way to guarantee them the right not to be found so tedious, irritating, or creepy that nobody wants to have a conversation with them any more.

LangCleg · 30/06/2018 09:55

To be clear: I am not requesting that anybody not respond to the substance of what I say. I am requesting that users I am personally uncomfortable with do not engage me directly (in the accepted MN ways of direct engagement with fellow members) by @ing me, naming me, or quoting my posts. This is a clear personal boundary. I would like it respected.

FermatsTheorem · 30/06/2018 09:49

It's always important to remember that a right to free speech is just that - a right to free speech. It's not a right not to face the consequences of your speech. It's not a right to demand a response to your free speech.

Free speech comes with consequences (unless you limit yourself to anodyne platitudes, which is hardly the sort of speech that requires protection).

If (to use the hackneyed old example) you shout "fire" in a crowded theatre, knowing that there is no fire, and people get injured in the ensuing stampede, you might (quite rightly) face the consequence of being charged with a public order offence.

If you (generic you) use your free speech to be goady and annoying, you might well face the consequence that no-one wants to engage with you any more.

You've still got your free speech, you've just been so ill-judged in how you've used it that no-one listens any more and you might as well be screaming into the void.

thebewilderness · 30/06/2018 03:00

I am 72 years old and the war on women has been going on all my life, all my mothers life, and her mother before her.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a violent hate crime.

thebewilderness · 30/06/2018 02:50

@Snappity

Hi Snappity. I think it is also clear that our views aren't simpatico. I find your contributions to FWR very goady and I prefer not to interact with you. If we find ourselves contributing to the same threads, please do not address me directly or quote my posts in order to engage me. This is a clear boundary. Please respect it. I won't be responding further. All the best.