Why are trans things discussed in Feminism section not a separate topic or have I missed something?

Controlling the language of the debate is winning the debate before it has begun. It's never been about courtesy. It's always been about control.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

PearlyG8. thebewilderness talks sense.

A woman is an adult human female.
A Feminist is a member of the political movement for the liberation of women.

Some people want to take those words away from us. You've got to ask yourself why.

I am struggling to write what I want to for fear of not being clear. The words woman, gender and sex are suddenly being used differently by different people so how can I express my sense of unease? I do feel silenced because even trying to form a sentence about my own experience is hard.

Discrimination is often embedded into language. We have seen it in gay rights. Even once we got same sex marriages, the word marriage wasn't initially used - we got civil partnerships. That's changed and we now have property equality and marriage for all. But in some groups, it isn't resolved. In some evangelical Christian groups, for example, marriage is still seen as being "between one man and one woman" and there is a dissonance between that traditional use of the word marriage and the modern, inclusive use of the word.

The same is true in terms of trans rights. Discrimination was embedded into terms like sex and woman. The first step, comparable to civil partnerships, was trans woman and some unfortunately resist even that. Just as civil partnerships became simply marriage to remove the outdated discrimination from the language used, so too trans woman has evolved to simply woman.

Unfortunately, just as some people want to cling to the discrimination of the past and continue to deny that two men, or two women, can 'marry', some refuse to use the term woman in its non-discriminatory sense.

Inevitably, there is dissonance between how the modernists and traditionalists use language, and that includes here. The modernised uses of terms like woman, female, sex/gender etc in my opinion are not going to go away, just as the mainstream use of the marriage is never again going to return to excluding same sex marriage. If you are struggling, then if you carry on using the old exclusionary language, then there are people here who will still understand that - embrace and encourage it even. But this is something of an echo chamber. Outside here trans woman (without the space) is generally accepted and increasingly, particularly among younger people, woman is too. It is why we see women with a trans history starting to take their rightful places on all-women shortlists or as women speakers. I guess everyone has a choice between clinging to the past or embracing change.

My skin is crawling.

Hi PearlyG8

I understand the feeling of not being able to discribe your experiance and when working with young trans people I am often at odds with my use of what they see as outdated language though I have to explain to them that it was once the upto date language and that sometimes its ok to stick with the words that define us but that we need to be mindful that we don't project them onto others and that we can seek clarification as to how others seek to define themselves. I think that a conversation or debate undertaken in those terms should not be seen as wrong. As always with youth things are often black and white and the areas of gray have not started to seep into there lives yet so it is often hard to explain this idea to them and why interacting on places like this are importent.

What makes me a woman or a feminist? And if I'm not conforming can I be either?

A woman is an adult human female.
A Feminist is a member of the political movement for the liberation of women.

You ability to be either one or both is entirely dependent on you.

Being in London, and seeing you in the corner, and Datun standing up - what a great moment.

If we win, MN feminists need their blue plaque. I don't mean me, I mean going back to Dittany and way back when. They didn't shut up.

R0wantrees

I did see that, yes. Stunning.

I think the view was of MN as some kind of harmless TERF containment area to laugh at.

I agree with that, too. How many women say that feminism is truly your archetypal lightbulb moment? And once seen, it's never unseen.

For most women who go through this specific experience, I believe the grip of feminism just tightens. Which is quite remarkable, given how uncomfortable it can be.

So a bunch of bullying and intimidating men genuinely believing that mumsnet was harmless, because all women do is push prams and scrub floors, was no surprise.

Don't you think it's surprising they didn't catch on earlier to the mumsnet massive? They had the UN, the EU, the local authorities, the media, half the unions, all the political parties and the education establishment all taken care of with plans going back decades. And then a bunch of mothers stuck a foot out from behind a door and said NO, and they just weren't prepared for it.

I think the view was of MN as some kind of harmless TERF containment area to laugh at. Then some of us took it offline - I love you forever, Man Friday! - and the press started writing about us. Which prompted a very large amount of narc rage.

Though I'm genuinely frightened of the consequences of further erosion of women's rights, I can credit this debate for helping me to find my voice, my clarity on what it means to be a woman, my resolve in raising children that will understand the difference between gender and sex, (and work to eliminate the trappings of such), and has prompted me to deeply consider how I can help my class globally to fight patriarchal oppression. Thank you to this forum for helping this baby feminist "find her wings!"

Your whole post was fab, George, but this bit stands out. The silver lining in the cloud of extremist transactivism is the consciousness raising it has prompted among women.

Keep on keeping on, my friend!

Don't you think it's surprising they didn't catch on earlier to the mumsnet massive? They had the UN, the EU, the local authorities, the media, half the unions, all the political parties and the education establishment all taken care of with plans going back decades. And then a bunch of mothers stuck a foot out from behind a door and said NO, and they just weren't prepared for it.

By targeting mumsnet especially - they are just increasing the number of feminists.

Datun did you see this?

Yes that's true of me.

Great post GeorgeFayne.

It's certainly an observable phenomenon that when women drill down to find out what all the fuss is about, they are unearth some pretty persuasive arguments about feminism in general. And misogyny in particular.

Finding out about the trans ideology is bringing more and more women to feminism.

It's yet another own goal of transactivism. By targeting mumsnet especially - they are just increasing the number of feminists.

Important current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3287763-Posters-jumping-before-theyre-pushed

Great post, George.

Brilliant post. Also brilliant quote. Let's go get 'em.

GeorgeFayne

I had been just about to post the same quote!

OP, to answer your question about the appropriateness of having this conversation in a feminist forum, I refer to my own experience.

I considered myself a "feminist" for most of my adult life, but can honestly say I didn't give much thought to the theory or basis behind that position. I believed in the equality of and the oppression of women, and largely considered feminism in terms of workplace equity, freedom of personal choice, supporting women globally, (including ending religious practices like FGM), etc. I don't suppose I ever sat and pondered the questions: what is a woman? WHY are women oppressed and always have been? Is there such a thing as "feeling" like a woman? What is femininity? What is the difference between sex and gender?

Last year, I started researching the issue of trans kids for clinical reasons, which led to further reading about the transgender rights movement. What I have ended up learning and discovering has changed my perspective on so much, including my own belief system about men, women, and our very sense of being.

In attempting to redefine the meaning of woman to include biological males, women face what I fear may be our greatest threat ever: complete erasure.

Our biology is at the core of this issue, and it matters. Being able to discuss the very definition of woman and WHY we face the oppression we do very much intersects with the idea that men cannot share this. Further, years and years of dedicated work to ensure that women have the protections we need, be it a domestic violence shelter or a separate sporting league, are all in jeopardy (by the inclusion of biological males). How is this not a feminist issue?

Though I'm genuinely frightened of the consequences of further erosion of women's rights, I can credit this debate for helping me to find my voice, my clarity on what it means to be a woman, my resolve in raising children that will understand the difference between gender and sex, (and work to eliminate the trappings of such), and has prompted me to deeply consider how I can help my class globally to fight patriarchal oppression. Thank you to this forum for helping this baby feminist "find her wings!"

Don't be silenced. In the words of MLK, "our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."

Thanks for all the well wishes. Unfortunately the sickness bands don't seem to make much difference to me. I'm well into the second trimester now and it's just dragging on but loads better than it was at its worst at least! And it won't last forever.

Have you tried travel sickness wrist bands, Ally? They did wonders for me.