Study find trans kids thrive after early transition

Gibberty if you are going to start a post by saying "factual nonsense" you should endeavour to make sure that your subsequent "correction" [sic] is not complete bullshit. You wrote: "Fertility - Sperm and ova can be banked. Surrogacy is just as possible as it is for any gay couple and womb transplants etc are already in medical trials."

Puberty blockers are given at Tanner stage one of puberty. Sperm production starts at Tanner stage three or four. Similarly, menstruation in girls (signally the start of ovulation) typically starts at Tanner stage three or four.

If you give puberty blockers at Tanner stage one, there are no sperm or ova available to be banked.

That's before we even get onto issues like osteoporosis.

The OP, Wakame, wrote - "A study has found that young adults who transitioned in childhood through puberty suppression and cross sex hormones are thriving."

The word "thriving" does not appear in the report of the study.

The study is of 55 young adults. It is a very small study. Although it is a contribution to the study of treating transgender children, it is scientifically unwise at this time to extrapolate this very small sample to claim wider validity.

For future studies to be taken more seriously than this study, sample sizes much larger than this study will be required. There is no shortage of transgender children to study. I have heard that there are more than 600 transgender children on puberty blockers administered by UCL Hospital in London alone.

I am going to propose that no one else answers this thread ... Wakame is aiming to derail a Feminist Chat board... has done it before and is doing it again....Really great that Bowl has pasted one cogent response - Let's not add any more

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with this. We often discuss trans issues in FWR and it's useful to hear the other "side".

Womans Place UK, whom I support, are asking for debate. Let's not suppress debate, eh?

I don't think Jazz Jennings is thriving, sadly.

GibbertyFlibbert
"Where are the controls?"

Have you ever sat down and shared a bottle of wine with doctors in this field? Controls means denying treatment to people whom the doctors believe would benefit from it. That raises huge medical ethics issues.

Have you ever met anybody with an incurable disease who has partaken in a medical trial? They are very common. Nobody is forced to go on a trial but those that choose to understand they might be able to access a potentially life saving treatment or they might be allocated the control group. My relative was in the control group (we discovered later). Perhaps if they had not been they might have lived longer. A personal tragedy yes but nonetheless I'd rather live with a system that rigorously tested drugs and treatments before offering them to the general population. We don't yet have a better way.

Also the doctors I know remain remarkably unemotional about their patient's lives. They have to be slightly detached to do their work. There are other healthcare professionals who can provide empathy etc.

Controls means denying treatment to people whom the doctors believe would benefit from it. That raises huge medical ethics issues.

The same used to be said of lobotomies and forced sterilisations.

I thought this was pretty relevant

I am going to propose that no one else answers this thread ... Wakame is aiming to derail a Feminist Chat board... has done it before and is doing it again....Really great that Bowl has pasted one cogent response - Let's not add any more

Boys will never experience a Female puberty, they don’t have fucking ovaries. Jesus, Wakame needs to see the work of Dr David Page on the myriad of genetic differences between Male and Female humans.
Fuxsake !

Wakame and GibbertyFlibbert
Can you explain to me why you think that children being helped to come to terms with the body they were born with is such a bad idea?

Wakame, that sentence about transitioning early so that the pelvic can form as female instead of male wants to make me cry. Whenever humans feel they can play God or are better than nature (whatever you believe in) it always ends in disaster. What you are suggesting is a science fiction world where humans are engineered, not grown and nurtured. It is right up there with embryo selection, cloning and robotic humans. I for one do not want to live in a world like that.

@Bowlofbabelfish I would be interested in seeing the study that says decapeptyl (blockers) has such effects which is mainky used as a cancer treatment in hospitals

Can you please link me

Thank you

Lol at womb transplants into men/trans women BTW. Is this a science fiction thread?

But they will face a host of health problems, some of them very extreme like infertility. That isn't thriving.

Womb transplants into males can never be ethical as you are basically experimenting on a foetus of high gestational age which is unable to consent

"womb transplants etc are already in medical trials."

Uterus transplants for women. No male pelvis will be able to support a gestation, it's too small and the wrong shape.

Yea - sterility, long term health problems and no sexual function - such a positive outcome 🙄
Prepubescent sperm and ova are useless because PUBERTY is what activates them .
Another muppet talking about womb transplants

Some parents with children who identify as transgender have taken issue with the Tavistock approach during Polly Carmichael's speech.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3268237-Westminster-Social-Policy-forum-today-Next-steps-for-transgender-Equality-WSPFEvents

twitter.com/DadTrans/status/1003597538384019457

"Gender has become amazingly topical and we have to be really careful not to assume that anyone is exploring or questioning their gender is going to want to change their bodies in line with that. The extremes on either side are not helpful. We need to look at the grey areas in between. To do that we need to be able to talk and discuss these issues. All too often stakeholders become lobby groups.”

Exactly. That shows really well that the clinicians involved in this field are very switched on. They aren't idealogically driven but are concerned with doing the best for their patients.

My hope isn't that children medically transition but that everyone, on both sides, will allow the clinicians to make an informed assessment on a case by case basis. I genuinely don't understand how that can be contentious.

"What a flippant and cruel suggestion. Link to a study instead of suggesting people hassle each other."

So which recent studies in peer-reviewed journals support your views?

Dr Polly Carmichael quoted in Spectator article by James Kirkup:
"The rapid rise in the number of assigned females…. exemplifies the importance of keeping discourse open and allowing different voices to be heard.

“You might say the increase in the numbers of assigned females coming forward is [because] that it’s easier for females to talk about their gender-diverse feelings so what we are seeing is an increase in awareness getting towards a better representation of the true prevalence of this among females.

“A converse explanation, a question: are there issues for young women around how they perceive their gender? There has been a worry by some that people who would previously have had an outcome around sexuality are now having an outcome around gender.”

additionally,
"Gender has become amazingly topical and we have to be really careful not to assume that anyone is exploring or questioning their gender is going to want to change their bodies in line with that. The extremes on either side are not helpful. We need to look at the grey areas in between. To do that we need to be able to talk and discuss these issues. All too often stakeholders become lobby groups.”

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

The quotes are taken from a recent lecture given by Polly Carmichael and the embedded link from the article is here:

soundcloud.com/user-664361280/dr-polly-carmichael-developments-and-dilemmas

NB Dr Carmichael is head of the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) of the Tavistock and Portman Trust, which is the NHS centre of excellence for helping children and adolescents with gender dsyphoria and other issues of gender-variance.

"Personally I think everyone should endure natural puberty. "

The whole point is to allow the puberty which is natural to those involved.

Which scientific studies were shut down? Even if shut down there will be academic papers. Do you have links?

There is a lot of research done that never makes the light of day either due to funding shut downs, institutions shutting it down, or the results are considered not significant enough or not what the backers want. I've seen estimates that about half of US clinical trials will never be published, I think there are likely similar numbers elsewhere.

James Caspian's treatment by Bath Spa University is probably one of the best well-known recent ones of research being blocked before it even got off the ground for political reasons.

GibbertyFlibbert
"Do they ever mature in the way adults are supposed to mature? Puberty is for brain development as well."

Talk to people who have been in that position and they can tell you themselves

What a flippant and cruel suggestion. Link to a study instead of suggesting people hassle each other.

"Where are the controls?"

Have you ever sat down and shared a bottle of wine with doctors in this field? Controls means denying treatment to people whom the doctors believe would benefit from it. That raises huge medical ethics issues.

I also understand why people can look at studies like this and believe it should be bigger but the sad truth is that funding in this area is very limited. Drugs companies fund large trials in the hope of making billions. There simply isn't a return on investment. It would be good to see the Government fund large scale trials but we know it isn't going to happen. So we get small scale trials by PhD students and studies done by clinicians in their spare time.

If you want to see better and bigger studies then campaign for proper funding.