No True Transwoman - transadvocates question whether TW is 'genuine' after said TW sexually harasses women in homeless shelter

It is staggering that saying that someone with a penis is male has become a controversial view.
And while we are all being ‘trained’ to believe that black is white women are going to continue to be assaulted.

I think its important to not forget LaSqrrl''s post:

"I have permission to share this story from a private FB group. I have removed the names - although I did verify this as a true story by finding him on some US prisoner look-up site (there were enough other details to work with). I can ask more questions (like, I assume this was some kind of supported accommodation). This is a quote btw, and pronouns as per the original.

I want to share more details about my homeless client who was murdered in November 2015. Her name was D-- and she was in her early 60's. She befriended an idividual in shelter in his 40's, who is a man named "C" that identifies as a woman. He had no surgical interventions and there was nothing 'feminine' about him. My job entails helping women in shelter find housing, then visiting them at least once a month until they are on their feet. D and C were neighbors and developed a close friendship. In fact, he was present when I went over safety planning with her. Having worked with the homeless population since 2005, there is little that phases me. However, C was overly vulgar, crude, vile, and just downright disgusting, as he enjoyed talking about graphic sex acts he likes to do to other men. I happened to be working one Sunday when I suddenly thought about D and called her. She did not answer and I considered going to her apartment, but decided not to. I found out the next day that she was BRUTALLY murdered by C about 45 minutes after I called her. I am told he stabbed her at least 7 times and slit her throat. Neighbors reported hearing her screaming and as she was dying, C stole her keys, locked the door, and went back to his apartment like nothing happened. There was no mention of any of it in the media and everything was swept under the rug...like she did not matter. Attaching his mugshot. Yes, he is serving a long sentence, but D-- is still dead and maybe she wouldn't be if a man had not been allowed into a woman's shelter.

So it can be a lot more than pervy behaviour, even more than sexual assault. These are the safeguards we are fighting to protect. So you pro-self-IDers can go shove it. Shower curtains stop nothing."

Yes they do. You beat me into second place. Congrats.

Do they award a prize for being a patronising twat?

Simon you're a genius. Now all you have to do is sort out the rest of the world and we're all happy.

I can see Trump is gonna have a rival for that Nobel Peace prize.

Marvellous Simon. Problem solved. Sorted.

It's like the end of humanity this forum. Fecking depressing.

The end of humanity is people tiptoeing around peoples feeling while women get assaulted.

What is depressing is that people can no longer say that someone with a penis is a man.

sorry:

A post op trans woman doesn't produce motile gametes and could be legally female

The deeply insulting thing about the Nixon case is that they were rejected because they had just transitioned, and the shelter asked them to apply again in a year or two.

Look, it is very very simple.

Does the person have a penis?
No. Then they can be admitted to a female safe space like a refuge.
Yes. Then sorry but they will need to find somewhere else.

Why has this become so difficult?

What the frack is this conversation? Who's talking to who?

A post op trans woman doesn't produce motile gametes and could be legally male. So no. They are not male.

For non post op trans woman they could still be legally women. In terms of accessing female spaces, if they allowed natal males in then they wouldn't be female only spaces (as has been pointed out here before).

It is up to individual organisations that provide services for vulnerable people to define the inclusion criteria. Whether that be on the basis of gender or sex. Within those organisations there would still be a need to provide sex segregation for personal facilities.

It's like the end of humanity this forum. Fecking depressing.

I would call them a male. Most males are men though.

But some males are?

It doesn't really matter what I think though. If we stuck to legal definitions it would support a common language and reduce potential for misunderstanding

You may have identified an important issue here.

I would think that 'training' people to identify who is 'genuinely' transgender is an impossibility!

Or could also be called "gate keeping", that thing that TRAs want to do away with, when it involves a medical professional suggesting that transition is not going to be helpful to an individual

& then of course there are the women in the Scottish female estate.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242264-Transgender-murders-in-Scottish-womens-prison

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242178-Transgender-killers-split-up-by-prison-chiefs

The solution for women is to keep males out of female spaces. I'm sure men with their superior ingenuity can find a solution for the male problem of male violence against males.

Which I have. You are pretending that you don't support male access to female spaces.

The issues seems to me to be how do we identify and prevent men or women pretending to be the opposite gender for self gratification/ to harm others?

Whilst clinical professionals can probably weed out some of the less clever ones, I don't believe this is feasible. Especially because we're not just talking actual Gender Dysphoria sufferers but Autogynephile fetishists who get included under the trans banner. How can anyone possibly say the latter are "genuine" or "not genuine"? Though honestly, I am unwilling to even go down that road. Whether someone is "genuine trans" or not, they're still their biological sex which is the actual, measurable difference. Everything other than that is vague and unprovable.

I personally (as a woman not in need of a a refuge from a specific individual) don’t believe there is a significant risk to allowing mtf transgender persons into ‘female ‘ only spaces - BUT I do expect the spaces to ensure adherence to behavioural rules eg no voyeurism in showers)

Again, I don't think that's possible. I'm hopefully not going to make myself sound like a predator here but if you put me in a shower with a bunch of naked women, I'm probably going to get turned on. Hell just sharing sleeping facilities could do it what with all those women around me in their underwear etc. What's the difference between looking at a woman in the shower and voyeurism anyway? For a straight male, not much.

Don't say sorry you were being nice

So you do support male access to female spaces.

Oops, sorry Pratchet I got caught out with just initials on another thread and thought you had too.

SMG: ?

I don't like your tone Pratchet! Don't try and rush me into replying in the hope that you're going to trip me up somehow.

I'm not trying to pretend there isn't potentially a problem. This is why there needs to be rigorous risk assessments and appropriate application of the EA regardless of how someone identifies.

Perhaps you could reassure the prison governor quoted in the Daily Mail, the women's refuge worker & the American homeless workers then?

Thanks! Asking SMG to explain a deliberate misleading claim that they don't support men's access to women's spaces.

What do you call an adult human of the sex that produces motile gametes to fertilise ova?

I would call them a male. Most males are men though.

It doesn't really matter what I think though. If we stuck to legal definitions it would support a common language and reduce potential for misunderstanding.