Trans Voices For Appeal Complain About Together For Yes Campaign

Update to thread:
GCN (Gay Community News) article:
'Mary Lou McDonald Calls For Abortion Legislation To Be Inclusive Of Trans, Non-Binary And Intersex People
The Sinn Féin leader urged the government to ensure that trans, non-binary and intersex people are included in the wording of the bill.'
17 OCTOBER, 2018.

"Amid Dáil debate over the legislation of abortion services, the Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald has called for increased clarity in the abortion bill, as well as for the wording of the legislation to be inclusive of transgender, non-binary and intersex people.

McDonald also urged members of the Oireachtas not to delay the legislation through “filibustering”.

McDonald said: “This legislation will require very, very careful thought and deliberation.”

Additionally, McDonald stressed that the language of the abortion bill must be reflective of the “diversity of the society in which we live”.

“I am asking very, very simply that we have a full, deliberative and frank debate. But I am appealing to colleagues not to abuse the rules and regulations and latitude of the houses of the Oireachtas to delay and delay and delay legislation which already carries the democratic imprimatur and approval of the Irish people”.

Solidarity/People Before Profit TD Paul Murphy echoed McDonald’s concerns regarding the exclusion of trans, non-binary and intersex people from the wording of the bill. Murphy said that trans and intersex people may encounter difficulties seeking termination services if the legislation exclusively refers to women.

“Trans men have the capacity to become pregnant, as do non-binary people, but certainly under any strict reading of the bill, [they] would be unable to access abortion”.

Murphy said he would be eager to hear the government’s response to his concerns, and urged them to include more inclusive terms in the wording of the bill.
Earlier this month, Minister for Health Simon Harris introduced a bill that would legalise abortion services in Ireland.

Harris spoke about the need to legislate as soon as possible:

“Today we begin the job [the voters] have given us, of making the law that follows the repeal of the Eighth Amendment and after 35 years in the Constitution, in doing so we are also making history.”

The government are aiming for the bill legalising abortion services to be passed well in advance of 2019."

gcn.ie/mary-lou-mcdonald-abortion-legislation-inclusive-trans-non-binary-intersex-people/

Supermatchgame I read an interesting point on another thread which went a bit like this -if you transition you commit to living your life as the gender you identify with. So trans men who are pregnant won’t be in compliance with that so are legally still considered as women. That was how I interpreted it.
But also, is that train of thought not the very start of the slippery slope to ‘erasure’...

Rose of Dawn's video is worth watching as she finds some common threads:
'Radical far-left activists often co-opt unrelated movements to enforce their ideology on others. Here, I take a look at this phenomenon taking place in the trans community'

"We need to ensure that the misogyny, transphobia, classism, racism and ableism of the 8th Amendment is eradicated. Abortion must be accessible to everyone, regardless of gender identity or class. It MUST be free. And it MUST be inclusive of transgender people"

Sounds very similar language to some of the individuals & groups discussed on this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3257491-Strong-words-from-feminists-unhappy-with-trans-exclusionary-ideology

www.facebook.com/events/781917831998576/?ti=as

This is not a parody. Fucking idiots. This lot are like the "Degenderettes", bullying women for talking about their bodies.

Interestingly the only calls to exclude people who identify as trans men from women's services, that I have seen, came from within the NUS. Including NUS officers who are trans women or non-binary trans women.... along with some claims of the trans men's transmisogyny / privilege etc.
So for the sake of clarity: born male people seeking to exclude born female people from women's servces

The thing that isn't mentioned is that part of improving gynaecological services for all who use them is that they better understand, respect and support the individual needs of the patients.

I was really fortunate that my gyny oncology team take a very holistic approach. In the years since my diagnosis I know that many teams do not.

There is still work to be done and many women, charities and medical practitioners are working hard to try to improve things. I've been a small part of this with regards gyny oncology so do have some awareness of the scope.

Of course there should be information and training which supports the specific needs of those who identify as trans women so that their care is given sensitively.

There are many groups of women whose needs should still be better understood and supported.

This has to be seen in context.

Dismissing concerns that women who understand the context have as 'hooting' is pretty appalling.

Insisting that gynaecological medical services do not refer to women is a really serious issue.

It is. But I don't believe certain posters have the slightest understanding of that.

Would it be valid for women like me to object to some of the campaigning 'that women need abortion rights' when I don't need abortion rights because I needed to have a radical hysterectomy due to cancer diagnosis?

A pregnant person who identifies as a trans man would not be excluded from any gynaecological medical services. Suggesting this would be the case seems bizarre to me.

Insisting that gynaecological medical services do not refer to women is a really serious issue.

Did smg come back with why they thought it wasn't 'real'? I think it must be, I'm blocked too, no interaction with them but I follow quite a few feminists so I don't think it's a parody.

No I didn't. Yes it might be real. I see now it is more about trans men. Kind of got lost amongst all the hooting about trans women. Isn't there a valid point there though? If trans men become legally male, as they can, then any legislation that only referred to women would exclude them? So I can see the logic if that is the case otherwise how would a pregnant trans man that was legally male get an abortion?

not the vaguer "bodily autonomy" I've seen co-opted by Irish-based TRAs to wedge themselves into the middle of things.

It's because that phrasing suits their own specific agenda.

Thanks Elendon, we need to remember it's women's reproductive rights not the vaguer "bodily autonomy" I've seen co-opted by Irish-based TRAs to wedge themselves into the middle of things.

This is about the reproductive healthcare and rights for women.

Women, female born, cannot escape this.

You have nailed the exact level of ridiculousness demanded by TRAs Popchyk

And those saps who actually wear a size 10? The cis-10ers with their cis-10 privilege? Well, duh. They'll just have to wear the actual size 16 baggy clothes and a belt. Small price to pay in the face of your oppression and arduous journey to get to size 10. Can't they be nice and inclusive?

"Womanhood is not just based on what body parts a person has"

Same old same old.

Women and girls must be what men / society says we must be or we are not worth the paper we're written on / worthy of the name. All this shit gets inbued into different words around female and then we are expected to meet it. Both negative and positive shit related to our behaviour, sexuality, looks, modes of dress and sexual appetites.

I am sick to fuck of it I really am.

"I can’t imagine I’m a size 10 and then ignore the size of my arse can I?"

Of course you bloody can. This is a brave new world. Embrace it.

March into Marks and Spencer and Zara, tell those sizephobic bastards that you are a size 10 so they'd better stitch size 10 labels into all the size 16 clothes. Your arse is oppressed; there has been no arse more oppressed. Fat arses are small arses. #nodebate.

And those saps who actually wear a size 10? The cis-10ers with their cis-10 privilege? Well, duh. They'll just have to wear the actual size 16 baggy clothes and a belt. Small price to pay in the face of your oppression and arduous journey to get to size 10. Can't they be nice and inclusive? And any of those bastards who won't go along with it, the heartless bastards? Call them Tenerfs and shame them on Twitter.

Actually, Tenerifes sounds better. Bit more catchy. I can feel a campaign coming on. Who's up for it? Ten Thursday?

Stonewall surveys are total bullshit. They don't reveal their methodology at all

I expect you already know this but the term, for those who do not, is "push poll". If they show their methodology everyone would see what they are doing.
noun
an ostensible opinion poll in which the true objective is to sway voters using loaded or manipulative questions.

Womanhood is not just based on what body parts a person has

Yes it is. You can’t just imagine shit and then announce it’s true.

I can’t imagine I’m a size 10 and then ignore the size of my arse can I?

Not ever a woman.

Is that the boxing Ms Maloney who previously tried to throttle their wife? Something that we all know women do far far more than men.

From www.indy100.com/article/daily-star-kellie-maloney-transphobia-headline-transition-8367301

'Zane Robinson of the LGBT Foundation also asserts that the representation of trans people in the media impacts how society views the trans community. He said
(extract)
"Womanhood is not just based on what body parts a person has, and saying that Ms. Maloney is only now ‘all woman’ takes away from the 56 years prior that she expressed her struggles with her gender identity and the six years she has already been out as a woman and transitioning"'

That article made me really angry. I'm not sure why. There will always be things you feel exclude you and if you need to deal with them you manage it. You don't get the world to change their language. It read very much as if people are taking the whole world personally.

One point that I did think useful is magazines speaking about female and male health issues, no matter their targeted audience. I think it could be done in a way of supporting partners but also get info out to people who are not buying into only reading things approved for their gender.

I've also noticed recently that the British survey on social attitudes which was previously often quoted to demonstrate the high levels of acceptance of trans women sharing women's spaces (eg public toilets) seems to have been surpassed by a survey highlighting transphobia and hate crime. I believe this is a recent Stonewall survey

Stonewall surveys are total bullshit. They don't reveal their methodology at all (eg questions asked, how respondents were recruited etc)

To them women means feminine, and I can see if you felt that way you would fine it exclusionary. (to get a flavour of this gauge your reactions when you see san-pro packaged with hearts and butterflys or marketed for girls or ladies) BUT this is a problem with the genderisation of biology NOT biological differences themselves

Got a bit of a way through that link and what I get is:

Stop talking about sex (as in, biology)
Stop talking about sex related bodily funcitons - like menstruation

Just stop it.

We have come so far

This is all a puch back to the ?last 10 years or so, women being able to talk more freely / more articles / more charity things around female reproductive health isn't it. People have always found it squicky. They want us to shut up.

Now IF we were just allowed a word for cunty people, there would be no problem. We had one, but the meaning was changed (no consultation) so now there is no word for the X billion cunty people in the world.

Note - no-one telling men to shut the fuck up about prostate cancer, erectile dysfunction, etc etc