Questions for TRAs or Transpeople on here

But "woman" doesn't cease to have a biological meaning just because it has a social one which may not identify exactly the same individuals.

Haha, typical fast-typing typo!

What I have learned so far is that a woman isn't an adult human female. Women are people who identify as women. They have a deep internal sense that they are women and this is what makes them women.

What it would be better to take away is that the word "woman" can mean different things in different contexts. Lots of words do, it's quite normal. We all seem to be able to hold that range of meanings in our minds and select the most appropriate one at any one time for most other words, so...

A woman is something in relation to the law. A woman is something in relation to biology. A woman is something in relation to culture and society. A woman is something in relation to her sense of self.

"What?", is the obvious question in response to all of those. In the law, I'm not so sure, but in relation to biology it is an expected set of chromosomes, reproductive apparatus and sexual maturity; in culture or society it obviously varies by location, but it typically encompasses how other interpret your social "role" and a good number of stereotypes in there; and in relation to the self, yes, it is to do with "identifying" oneself as one.

We're clever folk, we can hold all those concepts in our head at one time. We usually have a fair clue which one of those we're looking for in any given scenario, although granted, sometimes it's more complicated than that.

But "woman" does cease to have a biological meaning just because it has a social one which may not identify exactly the same individuals.

"Adult" has a meaning in law which doesn't encompass all of those who have achieved it's biological meaning - that of sexual maturity. Still a word. Still works just fine.

It is a regular occurrence on these boards that posters ask, "in what way are transwomen women?". If that isn't an appeal for evidence than I'm a dodo in a baseball cap.

In order to find evidence you have to know what you're looking for.

What I have learned so far is that a woman isn't an adult human female. Women are people who identify as women. They have a deep internal sense that they are women and this is what makes them women.

So a deep internal sense.

How does this express itself? Does it inform any changes in behaviour that distinguish us completely from men? Is it universal to all women? If so how come so many women don't recognise it as an attribute they have? Does it program all women to behave and think in the same way?

@Ireneony - Thank you, if I am honest, I think I have had it easy for the most part.

I absolutely agree that we need to stop telling children they can actually change their sex.

I also agree that GD is an illness. but unfortunately teaching transpeople to 'accept ourselves as we are not what we wished we were' isnt going to make it go away. I tried that approach for 27 years and I still decided to transition with hormones (and eventually surgery).

I also mirror your comment that I do not have all the answers.. But I want to talk. I want to talk a lot. There are not many of trans people compared to the general public, so I want my voice to be counted but it should not weigh more than yours or anyone's.

Yes I have said stupid things. I will say stupid things both on here and in real life but I am not obstinate, I am willing to learn other views and find the best way forward. For everyone. Unlike hard liners on both sides of the fence.

Okay Lang, I will stop using the @,

1. I don't want to go around in circles on this point.

1. I stand by my position. Parkrun is a fun run not a competitive event. One transwoman is not skewing anything. I also later on went on to say that if I was improving very quickly and started ranking in the top 25% of runners that I would look to mark myself as assisted somehow.

4.You and others have intentionally taken what was typed and cast it in to a specific light. The original post in question even specifically stated, in brackets that the analogy of meeting the other user was non confrontational. So I will not apologise for disingenuous misquoting.

1. I believe you to be an intelligent person. Many of your comments that I have read whilst reading through vast threads before commenting, I agree with at least aspects of, but again, you casting many that I say in to a specific light to paint me as the enemy is not my fault. I have tried repeatedly, both with yourself and other on these forums to find common ground. I am not your enemy, I do not see you as mine. I see you as someone whom has been pushed over the edge one too many times and wants drastic change. Or rather to stop a drastic change that would endanger people. I equally want change. But I do not want change that was pushed through by silencing people. I want to talk to woman. To ask questions, hear their responses to what I think and to through that learn more about this shitty situation that I switched myself off to and now want to catch up.

I have said time and time again that I am admittedly naive on a lot of topics. I have opinions like everyone, some have merit and some are stupid.

Oh NatLuc. I am gender critical but can't help reading your posts and feeling so much compassion for you and your situation. You, and other gender dysphoric people, do seem to be really stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I don't think it is your fault, personally, I think a very vocal, angry, selfish but growing minority are appropriating your experience in an identity politics war all about them and their entitlements.

I think gender dysphoric people are victims of a society that constantly has to label and constrain us to boxes. Just as women are. And in that we share experience.

I think there exists a lot of vested interests in your dysphoria as there are vested interests in the female sex constantly feeling insecure about every aspects of themselves.

I don't understand your experience but I'm not going to deny you it. I don't have all the answers to how we move forward with this and reach solutions for everyone.

My thoughts are that biological sex should mean no more than literally the reproductive system we are born with and 'masculinity' and 'femininity' are personality traits that are open to all people and no one should be defined or constrained by. I do think gender dysphoria is a mental health condition that needs treating in a healthy productive way, that doesn't lie to people about changing sex.

It seems we've such a long way to go before we can just let people be who they are.

All this controversy essentially boils down to females having specific needs and vulnerabilities that males don't share which have nothing to do with identity and shouldn't be classed as transphobic to say. We need to be able to compete against each other in sport or we can't compete. We need to be able to talk about our biology without being seen as 'exclusionary' and sometimes we need to be away from males because they do pose a threat. AWS exist because females often lack in opportunity because of discrimination due to our sex not our identity. I think there should exist seperate shortlists for transpeople as they do experience their own discrimination.

I'm open minded and my opinions on this seem to be ever developing

From upthread: I AM male.. I cannot change that biological fact. But I’m not a man.

I don't understand this. 'Man' means male adult human. So how is calling yourself male any different from calling yourself a man? Equally, woman means female adult human, so you can't be a woman unless you are female. To claim you are an actual woman, you must also claim to be female. They are the same thing (unless you are a child, in which case obviously you'd be a girl not a woman). You can't make the words male/female and man/woman change meaning just by wanting them to. They mean what they mean!

I agree entirely with the OP - very sensible and clearly-written.

my refusal to 'acknowledge' that being a woman is a feeling is somehow forcing men to embrace hyper-feminine stereotypes in order to be seen as women?

I didn't say that was my opinion, I said that your argument was as useless as that one. I'm not going to choose for myself an argument I'm presenting as useless, am I!

I'm not going to believe that a man in a short PVC skirt and a face full of makeup is any more of a woman than a man who merely presents himself in a tasteful pale yellow cardigan, jeans and dainty silver chain necklace.

Well if we look at society as a whole it does become rather clear that people are more happy to accept transwomen as women the better they "pass" - or the better they appear to be women. So what you personally think about that is rather here nor there.

You're jumping the gun a bit there. We haven't even been given a proper definition of what a woman is yet. How can you look for evidence of something that is apparently so mysterious and undefinable that it defies being put down on paper?

It is a regular occurrence on these boards that posters ask, "in what way are transwomen women?". If that isn't an appeal for evidence than I'm a dodo in a baseball cap.

But the simple fact, for trans people, is that we are being excluded from a club for a reason (a good reason in certain circumstances) that is not our fault (being born with the wrong body) which is infuriating for us because it is not our fault.

Isn't this a bit like Rachel Dolezal being excluded from a club because she was born white, not black? It might be infuriating for you that you were born male, not female, but you can't change that fact, and it's not women's fault, either.

If there would be no stereotypes, I would still be free to express myself however I wished, BUT with the exception that I would not (for example) feel shame for having to grow through my facial hair for 3 days prior to electrolysis and therefore feeling I have to dial back my presentation to 'androgynous' to avoid people starring and laughing at me for clearly being a tranny.

And this is what we should all be working towards. An acceptance of everyone, however they choose to present. What is wrong with being androgynous? It's better to be honestly androgynous than pretend to be something you are not.

It is not the fault of transpeople that gender stereotypes exist. It is not the fault of transpeople that we are all conditioned to assess people in part on the basis of those stereotypes when inferring their sex and gender. It is not the fault of transpeople that their identity is so questioned that they are obliged to express those stereotypes.

Yes, so I'm correct then.

I could equally say to you that your refusal to acknowledge the identity of a transwoman as a "woman" forces them to perpetuate damaging gender stereotypes as a means of appeasing or convincing you, and that it is you who is anti-woman.

1st rule of misogyny - Women are responsible for what men do.

Come on, give your head a wobble. Listen to yourself. My refusal to 'acknowledge' that being a woman is a feeling is somehow forcing men to embrace hyper-feminine stereotypes in order to be seen as women? I don't believe you can change sex, I'm not going to believe that a man in a short PVC skirt and a face full of makeup is any more of a woman than a man who merely presents himself in a tasteful pale yellow cardigan, jeans and dainty silver chain necklace.

You can't on the one hand say "you're not a woman, there is no evidence, give me evidence", and on the other say "this may be evidence of what it is to be a woman in our society, but we don't want it to be and we don't like it! No real woman would use this as evidence of their womanhood, you imposter!".

Evidence? You're jumping the gun a bit there. We haven't even been given a proper definition of what a woman is yet. How can you look for evidence of something that is apparently so mysterious and undefinable that it defies being put down on paper?

NatLuc

1. Please don't @ me. It clutters up my inbox. I am capable of reading my name in bold text.

1. You are not being excluded from a bloody club. Womanhood is not a club. Claim your transhood, not my womanhood.

1. You arrived on this forum declaring your right to prevent other women from meaningfully comparing their Park Run perfomances against other women and to object was to deny you right to womanhood.

1. On this thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3246755-Transphobia-or-truths - you invoked multiple MRA talking points including women rape too and insinuated physical threat against a feminist with the audacity to give a feminist opinion to your face.

1. So forgive me if your I'm just a poor oppressed person and it hurts me when you nasty women believe otherwise posturing on this thread cuts absolutely no mustard with me.

People cannot change sex. If they could, this would not even be an issue

And yet the TRA say they can. Kids in school are told they can just take some pills and change sex. If everyone just admitted changing sex was impossible there would be no issue.

Gender is merely presentation.

Whilst I can empathise with you and understand that the current legal process is designed to help those like yourself, can you not see the damage just allowing anyone to merely state they are a women even when they make no changes at all (Muscato) is doing? It makes the word women a joke.

Whilst you say you are male but want to be called woman. We are now told trans women are now female too. Can't win.
Even you saying you are male and can't changed sex is deemed bloody transphobic!

We have to 'prove ourselves' to be taken seriously. That is why we try to conform to gender expectations that most of that sex take on themselves. Because by 'falling in line with the majority' this is how we can be seen to be 'trying hard enough'

I hate most of the “gender expectations” forced on me though. Many of us do but as you say we conform to a degree to be accepted by society - whether we like it or not or think it’s crazy and unfair. Women and girls are hugely policed in this respect - shamed constantly if they deviate. And why i have a ptoblem with the many TW i see embracing the stereotypes (Shon Faye, IW, Paris Lees, Bergdorf etc) expected of females and even the more damaging porn based stereotypes you often see proudly acted out through Twitter. Males parodying and glorifying these damaging stereotypes and objectification of females.

@LangCleg - Honestly I think what upsets me more than any amount of misgendering or identity politics disagreements is that you think I am being manipulative.

It IS my right to be trans. But being trans is an assertion that there is something wrong with me. Which there is. And my struggle is to be accepted with dignity. It is not my intention to appropriate anything. But the simple fact, for trans people, is that we are being excluded from a club for a reason (a good reason in certain circumstances) that is not our fault (being born with the wrong body) which is infuriating for us because it is not our fault. But equally I see and empathise with the fact that many people see me as trying to take something from them.

It is not my intention to ever insult anyone. Ever. Not scare them or make them feel unsafe. Because I know how that feels.

I am not your enemy. But I understand why you see me as such and that upsets me. :/

@ijustwannadance - People cannot change sex. If they could, this would not even be an issue.

The thing is daimbars, the whole world knows that you and your wife could never have biologically had a baby together. No one is forced to pretend this is physically possible. You don't have to give birth to be a parent.

The issue with the trans ideology is that we are told people can change sex. Which is as impossible as two women producing a baby.

You being married or being a parent has no impact on women.

Trans is no longer just about those poor few with genuine dysphoria. We should not have to dilute the term woman to include anyone with a penis. It makes it meaningless.

I'm sorry you find my struggle to be seen for what I should of been offensive I really am.

Please don't be manipulative by putting words into my mouth. I don't find your struggle offensive. I find you describing your struggle as a means of appropriating my reality offensive. If you described your struggle as one of asserting the right to be trans rather than the right to be a woman as some kind of reward for effort, I would not find it in the least bit offensive.

Haha, I'm going to have so many notification emails!! Handhold for the electrolysis; enjoy comic con

@RatRolyPoly - LMAO you are fine, honestly. Talk all you like!

I am doing okay thanks, going to Comic Con in London tomorrow, just need to get through 2 hours of electrolysis tomorrow morning first..

@RatRolyPoly - LMAO you are fine, honestly. Talk all you like!

I am doing okay thanks, going to Comic Con in London tomorrow, just need to get through 2 hours of electrolysis tomorrow morning first..

@RatRolyPoly - LMAO you are fine, honestly. Talk all you like!

I am doing okay thanks, going to Comic Con in London tomorrow, just need to get through 2 hours of electrolysis tomorrow morning first..

I'm gonna get off your patch NatLuc

PS hope you're doing really well!

@HerFemaleness - Not at all! I am saying that I am trying 'to play the game'. Conform to the expectations that is set by the consensus not the minority.

If there would be no stereotypes, I would still be free to express myself however I wished, BUT with the exception that I would not (for example) feel shame for having to grow through my facial hair for 3 days prior to electrolysis and therefore feeling I have to dial back my presentation to 'androgynous' to avoid people starring and laughing at me for clearly being a tranny.

It is still my body that causes me dysphoria. Because it is my body that is wrong. Getting rid of stereotypes wouldn't fix that it would just relieve the pressure to externally conform.

It's a completely impossible and deeply unfair bind.

Essentially you have a vested interest in ensuring that gender stereotypes continue to thrive, and indeed become more entrenched in society. This is anti-woman.

That's not true HerFemaleness, that's a massive and unfair reach from what NatLuc is saying.

It is not the fault of transpeople that gender stereotypes exist. It is not the fault of transpeople that we are all conditioned to assess people in part on the basis of those stereotypes when inferring their sex and gender. It is not the fault of transpeople that their identity is so questioned that they are obliged to express those stereotypes.

I could equally say to you that your refusal to acknowledge the identity of a transwoman as a "woman" forces them to perpetuate damaging gender stereotypes as a means of appeasing or convincing you, and that it is you who is anti-woman.

You can't on the one hand say "you're not a woman, there is no evidence, give me evidence", and on the other say "this may be evidence of what it is to be a woman in our society, but we don't want it to be and we don't like it! No real woman would use this as evidence of their womanhood, you imposter!".