Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5

415 replies

R0wantrees · 16/05/2018 14:38

Extract from Radio Times:
www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-05-16/what-makes-a-woman-review-munroe-bergdorf-transgender-activist-debate/

"There are more moments of vulnerability when Bergdorf attends a discussion by a feminist group called We Need To Talk. There’s a real sense of menace in the air as transgender people gather outside to protest the meeting of so-called TERFS – Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists – who believe trans women are not female but are in fact men threatening to infiltrate women’s space.

Bergdorf is extremely articulate in one to one interviews so it’s a shame she doesn’t feel able to stay and debate them, but it’s also understandable – the atmosphere inside the meeting is toxic and she’s surrounded on all sides.

“When we [see] events like this, which directly are designed to deny [transgender women’s] very identities and the fact that we even exist, it’s extremely hurtful and concerning,” she says as she leaves. But she later sits down with one of the organisers, Venice Allan (aka Dr Radfem, just in case you were in any doubt).

They have an interesting debate about female and transgender rights, but it ends tellingly with the good Dr declaring “feminism is about women!” when surely feminism is about equality....

Concludes:
What Makes a Woman provides a valuable grounding in the ins and outs of the transgender debate for those of us who could use it – but it’s also a profile of a intriguing, sensitive, likeable person who is herself still on a journey of discovery."

What Makes a Woman is on tonight, Wednesday 16th May, at 10pm on Channel 4 and available afterwards on All4

OP posts:
SardineReturns · 16/05/2018 18:24

So here we have a woman who was born a man, asking the perplexing question "what does it mean to be a woman" and presumably coming to the conclusion that the answer is something that includes anyone who says they are one.

Men have been telling women what they are, what they ought to be, what they are for, how they must look, how they must behave, and so on and so forth, for ever. I for one am sick and tired of it.

LoislovesStewie · 16/05/2018 18:22

I'm not going to watch this nonsense, it will do nothing for my blood pressure.

LoislovesStewie · 16/05/2018 18:21

Well how lovely that someone can ask for the staff to be female
May I now request that I only share changing rooms with females( not a person with a penis).

frazzled1 · 16/05/2018 18:08

Bergdorf just tweeted

Before we started production, I made the requests with Antiodote and Channel 4 that the director and majority of production staff must be female.

So... all females eh? (Other than Munroe obv....) Hmm

Gappyonthetwits · 16/05/2018 17:11

Yes, Bergdorf heckled the meeting, tried to interrupt a speaker twice, and had to be reminded that everyone who wanted to would get a chance to add to the discussion after the speakers had been allowed to finish.

But he left without bothering to join in with any structured debate. Just wanted to disrupt.

Picassospaintbrush · 16/05/2018 16:59

Wasn't this the meeting where he started heckling?

And flounced off. On Channel 4 however, he had changed his mind about heckling, it wasn't respectful and the person had to be removed.

I watched genderquack after reading about it here and the press reports, it was easier that way.

R0wantrees · 16/05/2018 16:59

Wasn't this the meeting where he started heckling?

There's a link on the first page to a continuous recording from inside the event (on Jam Jar's FB page)

OP posts:
velourvoyageur · 16/05/2018 16:57

What Makes a Woman...is only ever a female reproductive system.

Ereshkigal · 16/05/2018 16:57

Well yes Bewilderness as MY was on the panel for a start.

Ereshkigal · 16/05/2018 16:55

I can't watch it live, will follow on here and catch up when I can unless I think it will make me want to put a brick through the TV even more than Genderquake

thebewilderness · 16/05/2018 16:54

IIRC the pretense that Bergdorf was the only transgender identified male in the room is false. But then without that pretense there would be no drama so there we are.

TwittleBee · 16/05/2018 16:54

What Makes a Woman provides a valuable grounding in the ins and outs of the transgender debate

Shouldn't a documentary that is called What Makes a Woman be about women...? Surely not have a man centred?

TwittleBee · 16/05/2018 16:53

the atmosphere inside the meeting is toxic

Wasn't this the meeting where he started heckling?

TwittleBee · 16/05/2018 16:52

Not sure if I can even bare myself to watch this tonight - Going to need wine to get me through it as I weep for our stolen identity and continued removal of rights

velourvoyageur · 16/05/2018 16:48

who believe trans women are not female

reassuring to know that the RT have disabused its writers of that pesky journalistic requirement that they actually be fluent in English

when surely feminism is about equality....

Oh my poor Germaine, how we are failing you!

She's surrounded on all sides

Well if you will go and stand in the middle of a room of your own volition that is what can happen yes

Picassospaintbrush · 16/05/2018 16:39

I don't find anyone self image obsessed interesting, so wouldn't really ever take much notice of this preening numpty.

Why is this particular numpty given so much air time? Is it the sheer ridiculousness?

R0wantrees · 16/05/2018 16:27

Jeni Harvey's article ( speaker at 'We Need to Talk' Jam Jar Bristol)

medium.com/@GappyTales/what-makes-a-woman-1f61f80901dc
(extract)

"It was a room filled with women and men of many different viewpoints: those questioning the current narratives around gender are in no way a homogenous group, and still more are undecided and unsure. But at the back of the room, sure as anything, perched camera ready and cross legged on a stool, was a famous person I recognised.

Munroe Bergdorf, a model and transactivist, had arrived in the midst of the preceding chaos, complete with film crew, and was now attempting for the second time, hand waving in the air, to disrupt proceedings by shouting over a speaker. In response, a reminder — a repetition of that which had previously been stated: that all opinions were welcome, but that before we could question what they had to say, speakers first needed to be heard without interruption

And so here begins the argument.

There can be no civil discourse with those known to be critical of trans ideology because the existence of trans people is not up for debate. This is now a well worn line, the second half of which is, of course, perfectly accurate. The existence of trans people is not up for debate. After all, it is not possible to debate a non-existent person. No one has ever felt threatened by an empty changing room, and women are not being beaten in their sporting events by nobody. Such passionate feeling could never come about over thin air. Human beings that identify as trans exist, just as I and you exist. The questioning of a belief that male people are female people simply because they claim so, does not constitute a denial of anyones existence. Neither is it a denial of their entitlement to exactly the same human rights as everyone else. There is no human right to use spaces reserved for those born female, if you are biologically male, however, and what women are asking for is a debate around potential changes to the law, and the aggressive attempts to reshape social norms, that will affect their actual rights and status as a protected group based on biological sex.." continues

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 16/05/2018 15:44

They have adopted the position that women's rights are anti trans without coming right out and saying so.
Hard to believe anyone could present a show ostensibly about women in 2018 without knowing that Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women, and instead adopt the backlash position that feminism is an equality movement for men who identify as women.
Propaganda promoting misogyny was a bad call here, I think. Time will tell.

BeyondPink · 16/05/2018 15:44

What makes a woman.

An X sperm, an ova, and approx 18 years and 9 months.

BlooperReel · 16/05/2018 15:44

The atmosphere in that room was anything but toxic, you can tell that from the video. What on earth is toxic about robust debate?

R0wantrees · 16/05/2018 15:38

This is the thread with video and discussion of what happened outside the 'We Need to Talk' meeting in Bristol with footage of the protesters who blocked the stairs when speakers arrived:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228346-Everyone-should-see-this-IMPORTANT

OP posts:
Cooroo · 16/05/2018 15:27

Toxic atmosphere inside the meeting? Bollocks. The whole thing is on video, anyone can watch it. It was not toxic.

OrchidInTheSun · 16/05/2018 15:24

Likeable is not an adjective I'd apply to this homophobic misogynist

LangCleg · 16/05/2018 15:22

I don't think I could watch without rage stroking.

Xulishesthepilot · 16/05/2018 15:20

Feminism is about women

So is the female supremacist movement.

And?