Gender pay gap

we're not debating opinions or arguments.

It comes down to the definition of what the "pay gap" means

It really boggles my mind that @mrghardy thinks that women being paid less than men does not translate into a lifetime earnings gap.

People are having trouble understanding why you want them to engage with opinions of people who are not here, fmsfms.

If you cannot formulate and express your arguments, and instead demand that people go read link after link after link of other people's opinions, people lose interest in talking with you.
It that is your goal then you have very nearly achieved it.

@mrghardy "says you"

No, says the site that I linked directly after that quote - hence the quote marks. LOL

Not going to address the other quotes? Face it, you were wrong

"For our purposes, the wage gap should be thought of as an earnings gap. The earnings gap is not a statistic, but it refers to the overall disparity in income between men and women." sites.duke.edu/sjpp/2016/wage-gap-vs-earnings-gap/

"For our purposes, the wage gap should be thought of as an earnings gap."

Oh really? Says you? Because it fits into your narrative? Bye.

Thanks TE MRA

Picassospaintbrush that comment was in direct response to a comment on that topic and why men such as I weren’t posting on it. I was simply replying as to why. I’ve not once asserted that all women do it or even most women. However some women do and they are best avoided.

I quite agree women should have their own careers and financial independence, and I look forward to the day that is achieved and we won’t need to see such massive wealth transfer as occurs nowadays.

I for my part am happy to call out the sexual objectification of women and challenge it where I see it as that is terrible also.

Ok good luck with that!

We do have an issue with it and we would like you to stop please.

How is posting 3 definitions of what the pay gap means "shitting on the thread"

@mrghardy disagreed with my defining it as a lifetimes earning gap, so I found 3 separate sources which also define it as an earnings gap

It's funny how people seem to have such an issue with me using sources to support my statements, whether that's studies or definitions

Lol 😆

walking atm machines

You are not on a footballers wives thread. Nor on any other female chiche thread either.

The risk to women of becoming economically dependent on a man is enormous, remaining self sufficient career wise is vital if you can do it, many simply can't because of low paid work for men and women.

Is the point of the thread some sort of weird google gotcha parade?

If it is I am out and we can start another one for people that want to discuss pro active work on this.

fmsfms has the point of view that everything is fine as it is and will google away splatting the thread with any old stuff that seems to make a point and that builds nothing in terms of the conversation.

This is one of the problems we are facing in business with all the armchair philosophisers postulating their pet poopoo theory and wasting people's time.

The purpose of publishing the gap was to try to get to the root causes and deal with them, not to spend another ten years shitting on the idea.

I take it back.

@mrghardy

"Gender pay gap:

Is a measure of the difference between men’s and women’s average earnings across an organisation or the labour market. It is expressed as a percentage of men’s earnings. In the Britain, there is an overall gender pay gap of 18.1%." www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/what-difference-between-gender-pay-gap-and-equal-pay

"You’ve probably heard that men are paid more than women are paid over their lifetimes." www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

"The wage gap is a raw statistic that refers to the percentage of women’s earnings relative to men’s. It is the ratio of the median income of women who work full time to the median income of men who work full time. The wage gap does not consider differences such as education, experience, extra hours worked, industry, time away from work, etc.

For our purposes, the wage gap should be thought of as an earnings gap. The earnings gap is not a statistic, but it refers to the overall disparity in income between men and women." sites.duke.edu/sjpp/2016/wage-gap-vs-earnings-gap/

Au contraire my good Sir, it is you that has misunderstood the point

fms

You completely fail to see the point.

@SonicVersusGynaephobia

Who is doing that?

The world divides into two: those who believe a gender pay gap exists, and those who don't.

I don't think this is true. My experience is people are disputing what the figure is showing. In the UK we are at the early stages of actually examining the meaning of this statistic. It took about two years to determining what the calculation should be, I was involved in the consultation and have done a number of projects on this.

It was understood that it is an imperfect measurement. Any single figure measure always will be.

Typically the pay research business does is paid for consulting and is kept confidential. I will think of ways we can be more open, plus I am very interested in business/education partnerships on this, I am going to talk to some people over the next few weeks on some ideas.

www.aviva.com/newsroom/news-releases/2017/11/Aviva-announces-equal-paid-parental-leave/

This is a new trend in the City , its increasingly the case in the USA too.

fmsfms gun to my head and force me to choose liberty or equality I’d choose liberty, but that does NOT mean equality where possible is anyway a bad thing. The contraceptive pill and reproductive rights have allowed women a hitherto unequalled access to all aspects of society. Maybe a future biological innovation to reverse aging or push back the menopause might close some of these gaps further.

To just throw your hands up and say “‘twas ever thus.” Doesn’t take into account the human ability to innovate the crap out of things. I refuse to accept things cannot be improved.

Broadly speaking you’re right in that 80% of women through human history have passed on their genes relative to 20% of men, but I’ve done a casual pass across the data and in modern economies the disparity is only a few percent. It’s disingenuous to extrapolate from a historical trend that hasn’t be translated into a modern context. If you have data that contradicts it I’m all ears, but I couldn’t find it.

It's a shame that the interesting voices on this thread about the causes, potential solutions, and conflicts thereof, the pay gaps between the sexes have been drowned out on this thread by aggressive, arrogant sealioning. Would have been a great thread, otherwise.

"This is only going to get resolved when couples naturally choose to fully share parental leave 50:50."

This is the fallacy of striving for equity of outcome, the idea that we can get to a point where parental leave is taken in equal measure by the sexes is absurd

As Peterson has said you can only accomplish equal outcomes through pressure and tyranny, e.g. Mandating that the leave MUST be taken even if people don't want to

Aren't there statistics that show that the number of men that don't reproduce has been lower than the number of women throughout history?

There will always be greater number of single men that are prepared to pursue their careers ahead of everything else.

Imchilbob very well written post, but how do you correct for the choice that us men have to forestall having kids until we are at the top of the career ladder? If as a man I have ambition and don’t want to suffer a career gap I am at liberty to do so and have kids much later? That fact alone will still stack the top ends of any organisation in favour of males. We don’t have the same biological pressures.

Otherwise I agree 100% with you on the importance of the dad-child bond, but how exactly do you incentivise those who don’t prioritise parenthood?

@mrghardy "I still disagree."

Go do some more reading on the subject then, if women are paid less than men then they earn less than men.

This is so blindingly obvious

"I cant help noticing that the men posting on this thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3249615-to-think-he-should-pay-on-first-date

havent posted on this one Funny that!"

What? That thread is in AIBU not FWR, and you are wondering why we didn't post in it? Come on...

fms

I still disagree. Lifetime earnings is simply a consequence of your yearly salaries. There might be overlaps with lifetime earnings in the sense that the same event (child) can drive both, but it is not the same thing and the solutions for it are not the same.

In fact, what you are talking about is just as important a topic, but still different. Yes, if you lost work years because of children, you will earn less in your life - that translates into less savings and a lower pension. Again I believe the government has an obligation to mitigate this and help women who have had children. But it's not the same issue, because you could address one but not the other. You could have it so that the mother goes back to work and her career and salary continue as she had never left (data shows the top 5%, or some other number, I don't remember exactly, of female earners benefit from being a mother, everyone else loses out, while men generally benefit or at least don't lose out). Still doesn't mean that she will ever catch up on the lost 2 years say.

This is only going to get resolved when couples naturally choose to fully share parental leave 50:50. The whole system needs to be reformed to make this feasible and attractive. I would suggest that the total should be 16 months so long as each partner uses at least 4 months of the leave whilst the other partner is working at least 0.75fte. Additional clauses would be needed to make sure that self-employed and people in more unusual employment scenarios are also covered.

If men are just as likely to have a childcare career gap then that will obviously help the gender pay gap. Women will be back at work quicker and will have less skills-rust to deal with.

I think fathers having a significant chunk of solo SAH parenting is incredibly good for the kids and for the dad-kid bond. All the threads about women taking all the emotional load for the household and men not thinking about either the nitty gritty details or the big picture but just carrying out specific named tasks - that doesn't happen in our house and I attribute it in part to the fact that dh did take some of "my" leave (only 3 months) and was fully in charge for that. I wasn't his "boss" giving him detailed instructions of how and what and where and when.

I think the only hope is to bring up the next generation with an expectation that obviously people of both sexes should do their fair share of all kinds of jobs - involve our sons in domestic tasks as soon as they can wield a hoover hose; involve our daughters in diy and car maintenance too - and on both cases whether or not they are interested or any good at it because adults step up and do what needs doing, sharing both the fun and the unattractive tasks fairly between everyone.

Achieving this is directly required for evolving a work culture where there are no sex-based differences for how parenthood affects careers. There probably would be a 'parental pay gap' but it would be evenly distributed between men and women.

It’s none of my buisness how other people’s dating goes! If she can get men to buy her dinners then more power to her. Personally I find it’s a great way from separating those women who view men in a certain way as walking atm machines and those who have a genuine interest to build something substantive. Best to read the signs and get out early!

I cant help noticing that the men posting on this thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3249615-to-think-he-should-pay-on-first-date

havent posted on this one Funny that!