Laurie Penny's Mirror World

Side note, ‘little’ being tossed around to dismiss what I’ve got to say- in that case, about protecting vulnerable women from police persecution - is something I’m pretty used to from men, and it’s a shame to hear it coming from women. Nothing about my physical appearance, or anyone else’s, is relevant here.

Lplurker I'd add to that summary that, as people who have rejected gender stereotypes, it's confusing to see them now seemingly celebrated and reinforced, to the point where they perhaps take precedence over sex. Its hard to really understand how someone can feel they are a different sex, and remedy that not by changing their body but just by changing the way they dress and wear their hair. It seems regressive because I think people should be able to wear what they like, even if goes against traditional stereotypes.

I feel I'm being asked to accept there are fundamental differences between men and women's brains. That women are innately more nurturing or vain, that men are more practical etc. So...idk, that doesn't feel like a good place to be heading.

Ok. I see. I must say, the tenor of this discussion is making it really hard to engage in an honest conversation with those who seem to want to actually do so.

If most of you you just want to slag me off and say insulting, untrue things and speculate wildly about my life, that’s fine, but forgive me if I don’t stick around for that. I get enough daily abuse from men.

@Lplurker

I don’t think what Posie Parker said, for example, is anything but hateful. How is that family’s struggle any business of hers?

In this case the mother of the family has given a lot of speeches about her family's struggles. She has set up a charity which advocates for allowing others to make the similar choices as she made for her child. And she uses her child as a "poster child" to promote this view.

In which case she has brought her family's struggles into the public domain.

Is it hateful to use the word castration instead of euphemism bottom surgery?

Thank you for sharing- that must have been a hard post to write and an awful situation to find yourself in through utterly no fault of your own.

Oh do fuck off. That's the position that most women find themselves in you entitled little shit. You have zero empathy for normal people. Didn't you suggest that sex work was a valid career choice for working class men and women?

in a time of imposed austerity and social collapse, more and more women and men are turning to sex work to make a living- and those people need protection, not further persecution.

"When a woman is hungry, the humane thing to do is put food in her mouth, not your dick" Rachel Moran, prostitution survivor-leader.

You're a pimps shrill Penny. Why don't you go and get your own house in order before coming on her playing the innocent...

Offred (and others).

Thank you for sharing- that must have been a hard post to write and an awful situation to find yourself in through utterly no fault of your own.

I think I understand a little better now.

What I’m hearing is that women here have been utterly shat on by this government, by cuts, by rising sexism in society and the stripping of vital welfare and institutional support. And that in this context, as you see trans women as men, it seems like men are barging in and demanding access to what little there is left for women.

It seems like there’s also a very real fear here that trans rights will be used as a lever to deny sex- and gender- based provisions and protections.

Am I getting that right?

Child safety is everyone's business

Hey there,

Hackmum, I’m reading through your questions and I don’t have the space today to answer them all individually- I’m sorry. I’m not aware of the original cases in every point you describe- I’ve read court transcripts from the Hyde Park incident- and I believe that there is a lot of simmering tension that’s really pretty disturbing. What I don’t believe is that trans activists are any more or less violent than any other group of activists I’ve encountered. One every side of this issue there are people who feel under attack, who are lashing out, who are finding it hard to remember one another’s humanity. There have been some profoundly ugly things said, including by ‘gender critical’ people. I don’t think what Posie Parker said, for example, is anything but hateful. How is that family’s struggle any business of hers?

In general I don’t think no-platforming is a strategy that works very well at all, but I understand why people feel the need to do it and it’s not my place to tell anyone else how to do non-violent direct action.

But I’d urge anyone reading this to understand that trans women feel just as threatened, just as defensive and just as scared as any cis woman on the other side of this issue.

*@Lplurker@ And I would respectfully say that if you do find time to research the GG issue you might well revise your opinion that GG are to be trusted when it comes to safeguarding of girls.

I don't trust them, having read the policy. My girls won't be doing GG.

My older girl is already expressing a desire to be in biological female only spaces for changing etc. She has a strong sense of her own dignity and gets very distressed and anxious when it is breached. It's not just about what the trans lobby want. Why is what she wants so unimportant? And how can she even express what she wants if basically any boundaries she puts up are 'transphobic'?

@Lplurker you dismissed my question about the Girl Guides. I'm feeling a little peeved. You say you want to talk, I asked you a question, gave you a link to more info (fairplayforwomen.com/guide-leaders-call-for-halt/) and you dismissed me but also contradicted yourself.

You state at first, talking about GG in general I DO trust individual organisations to do the necessary checks and decide on a case by case basis who is suitable to work with children, not just on the basis of gender but also criminal history, etc.
But then later
then And what is needed is a profound shakeup of the way that ALL institutions and organisations address assault, harassment and abuse of women and children. which sort of contradicts your first statement.

Also, in terms of DBS checks, Savile would have passed one of those so it only stops convicted child rapists not the ones that don't get caught so it's not enough and not good enough. Or are the first rape victims not important enough to protect?

Fine if you don't have time to look into all the questions you've been asked. Focus on other issues - but be honest about that.

I'm a mum to two daughters and the GG policy scares me as it makes it so crystal clear that an organisation that is supposed to be for girls cares so little about their privacy, dignity or safety.

Have you never wondered why sex AND gender identity can’t both be recognised in law and why the current lobby is specifically calling for the erasure of sex and replacement with gender identity?

This. This is why the trans issue is a consent issue. We are saying no to the biologically male sex in female sex only spaces. Happy for a feminine gender space or unisex thst is separate. Why no organising for a third space? There is no answer other than wanting to override the consent of women

Speaking as someone who has only realised / experienced since becoming a mother the extent of sex based discrimination.

and I would be concerned myself if the things being discussed here- lesbians being forced into having sex with anyone they don’t want to, denial of the material basis of women’s oppression, attempts to prey on vulnerable women in safe spaces- were actually happening. As far as my research as well as personal experience has taken me, they simply aren’t. I see a lot of untruths being spread.

Laurie, I've been trans-positive my whole life, except I never thought of it as "trans-positive" - we were all just gender-nonconforming people together. I am now gender-critical, and one of the things that set me on that road is that I am also an ex-prisoner.

You may not understand this, but women in prison are amongst the most vulnerable group of women there is. Women prisoners make up a tiny proportion of the total prison population, and the vast majority of them are in there for nonviolent crimes. Between about half and about four-fifths of women in prison are survivors of domestic violence. More than half are survivors of emotional, physical or sexual abuse during childhood. About a third spent time in local authority care as a child. Women prisoners account for a vastly disproportionate amount of self-harm reported in prison. I can promise you, from both well-documented research and my own personal experience of meeting other women prisoners, that far, far too many women in prison have a lifetime of experience of male violence.

And here we are, in a situation where male-bodied people - men - who have committed incredibly violent crimes, often against women and girls, are being moved into women's prisons, and there is constant pressure not just to move more of these violent males into women's prisons, but to change their perceived status from violent criminal to oppressed victim. If you want me to list some examples here, just ask, and I will.

I don't give a shit if these males are "genuinely" trans, or - like many other manipulative men - have just found a route which will give them a special status and support in prison, and bonus access to further victims. I will not stand by and see one of the most vulnerable groups of women thrown under the bus by people I had previously thought of as my allies and comrades.

Perhaps you don't really grasp the prison issue - I can't imagine you have ever likely been at risk of prison, or ever will be. Perhaps you haven't ever thought about women prisoners, who are invisible, disregarded, about as far from the circles of influence and celebrity as it is possible to be, I don't know. But they matter, and I will not allow them to be put at even further risk without a fight.

Little shocked by some of the vitriol here. I did just want to quote a post from another thread that I find sums up my frustrations with some of the arguments:

'PencilsInSpace

Gender dysphoria is so terrible you must give in to all our demands or we will die
but also
How dare you say trans is an illness or that gender dysphoria is necessary to be trans

If we are forced to use male facilities we will be attacked
but also
Your fear of males in female facilities is irrational and transphobic

Changes to the GRA will make completely no difference to you rights so shut up
but also
Nobody even knows what the proposed changes are yet because they haven't been published

You're all in an echo chamber
but also
Hahaha you can't even agree with each other'

I hope Pencils doesn't mind me quoting that post from the transphobic or truths thread but as I said I think it's an interesting summary.

Everything joan said

Laurie, thank you for coming. I would really love it if you answered Hackmum's questions from 6.47 this morning.

As soon as you pretend that the perpetrators are female you have agreed to not address the problem

YES

To me the problem is patriarchy, full stop, and a culture of complicity with abusers

Yep. That's what we're saying. Except there's no full stop. It's ellipsis...

LpLurker

I know, I know. It's really hard to believe and stomach what's going on. I suggest you have a read. And stop telling us to "be nice". We've had enough of that.

Laurie, thanks for coming along to engage with us. I have some questions that I hope you’ll answer:

1. Last year, transactivists tried to close down the working-class library in Salford because it had invited Julie Bindel as a speaker. Do you support them?

2. For several months, A Woman’s Place has been organising peaceful meetings to discuss the implications of the proposed Gender Recognition Bill. Since the very first meeting – to which trans representatives were invited – transactivists have waged a campaign of harassment and intimidation against the venues to persuade them to refuse them to host the meetings. Since that first meeting, A Woman’s Place has had to keep the venue secret until the day of the meeting. Do you think that it is acceptable to intimidate venues in this way?

3. For that very first meeting last year, after the venue cancelled, attendees had to meet at Speaker’s Corner to be told the new venue. While they were waiting, the attendees were taunted and harassed by transactivists, two of whom physically assaulted Maria Maclachlan. Do you think they were right to assault her?

4. After the assault, transactivists and their allies tried to perpetuate a false narrative that Maria had “provoked” them. Your colleague Owen Jones sympathetically retweeted articles and videos that put forward this false narrative. Given that one of Maria’s assailants has now been found guilty, do you agree that Owen’s actions fell far below the levels of responsible journalism? Do you also agree that Owen now owes Maria an apology?

5. In court, Maria was told by the magistrate to refer to her male assailant as “she” because that was his preferred pronoun. Do you think the magistrate was right to do this?

6. At a subsequent Woman’s Place meeting, Linda Bellos said that she would defend herself if transactivists attempted to physically assault her in the way they assaulted Maria. Transactivists then reported Linda to the police, and she was questioned. Do you think that Linda – a 68 year old black lesbian, a socialist and a feminist, who has worked tirelessly in radical activism for more than 40 years – should have been questioned by the police for saying she would defend herself against violent assault?

7. Posie Parker wrote a tweet that said Susie Green, CEO of Mermaids had taken her 16-year old child to Thailand to be castrated. Green reported her to the police for hate speech, who then questioned her. Do you think that Parker deserved to be reported to the police for her tweet?

8. At one meeting of A Woman’s Place, Helen Steel spoke eloquently about the numerous times she has been sexually assaulted by men, and why this means she feels strongly that men should not be allowed in women’s spaces. Subsequently, at the Anarchist Bookfair, Helen was surrounded by transactivists who shouted abuse at her, including “ugly Terf, fucking Terf scum, bitch, fascist”. Helen has been a force in left-wing campaigning politics for 30 years and was a co-defendant in the notorious McLibel trial. Do you think that she deserved to be intimidated and shouted at in this way? Do you think that shouting “bitch” and “fucking Terf scum” is an acceptable way to engage in debate with feminists?

9. At a feminist meeting in Bristol a few weeks ago to discuss the gender recognition bill, masked activists tried to physically prevent women entering. Do you think this is acceptable?

10. At A Woman’s Place meeting in Oxford recently, transactivists gathered outside the venue to shout abuse. A representative from the venue (the Quaker meeting house) tried to reason with the activists, pointing out that also inside the venue a meeting was taking place of sexual abuse survivors who were distressed by all the shouting. They simply ignored him and carried on. Do you think this is acceptable behaviour?

I look forward to your answers.

Deptford discussion:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203804-The-Deptford-People-Project-and-the-impact-of-self-ID-and-transactivism-on-working-class-women

I wonder, when Penny is researching other issues, whether she tells people 'no you've got it wrong. I don't believe you.'

I'm with Joan. I'm aware of too many people who have been bitten in the backside by Laurie's good faith bullcrap to ever believe that she has come here for any reason that is not a) narcissistic or b) for fodder.

This is my one post providing supply for Laurie.

Over and out.

Why, Penny seems to be blaming women there for her own failure to write an article which she has neither the understanding to conceive nor the ovaries to publish for fear of male abuse.

But hey, everything else is our fault so why not.

86% of the cuts born by women. Not transwomen. Biological women, because of our sex, not our identities. This is why legal protection for sex is so important and why we are so very afraid of it being watered down by making it into ‘whatever the market, the structures and the third sector decide’.

The only people who will abuse you if you write a more balanced piece are transactivists.

And I wouldn't want to be in her shoes if she dared to. You'd hear the howls of narcissistic rage from space.

I’m not doing this for a piece, although I am supposed to be writing one- frankly I started it a month ago and was meant to be putting across a more ‘balanced’ view and asking how we can resolve differences, but the level of vitriol and attacks I’ve seen have meant I’m almost too disturbed to do it. I’m not suggesting anyone here is involved in that, though I hope not.

Obviously that's a sly way of suggesting it. The only people who will abuse you if you write a more balanced piece are transactivists. Let's not pretend otherwise.