Posie: truthcrime harassment continues

There is no claimant here. You don't have to 'satisfactorily demonstrate' that people are innocent. You have to prove they are guilty.

That's because the prosecutor makes the claim that someone is alleged to have committed a crime. They are making a positive claim, and need to prove it, or it's not accepted, and so are you and so do you. We know trans identified males are male. We know males commit violent and sexual crime at a much higher rate than females. If you want to claim there is a difference between this subset of males and males as a class, which you do, you are making an extraordinary claim and the onus is on you to prove it.

MrGHardy
So the real control group would be males receiving counselling as these TIMs so one can actually separate the effect of transitioning from the effect of counselling. And one would need to also differentiate transsexuals from transgender.

No one will do an RCT, it wouldn't be ethical. But it isn't the job of research to prove innocence. That isn't how the law work either.

Furthermore, I don't remember the details of the study but it must be pointed out that your screenshot only says something like "there is no increased risk of crime after transitioning". Well, that doesn't say anything about decreased risk. I.e. it doesn't say TIMs are less violent. Maybe you chose the wrong screenshot, idk, but this does not really support your argument.

The screenshot came before the rest of the results - indicating that the similarity in crime rate between trans women and male population was only for those that transitioned before 1989 (when trans health and mental health care was less effective - her words), not after.

The researchers looked at differences between trans and cis population (her choice of words). She clarified in interview before 1989 trans women had a similar level of crime to males. I.e trans women transitioners after 1989 did not have an increased crime rate compared to 'cis' females.

For what it's worth, I would not be surprised if crime patterns are correlated with testosterone levels. And guess what wouldn't be needed under self ID? HRT.

Yes I agree testosterone has a role in aggression etc. I'm not arguing for or supporting self ID. This was in response to discussing medically transitioned trans women.

Certainly, Elletorro

The Ontario study:

High heterogeneity of HIV-related sexual risk among transgender people in Ontario, Canada: a province-wide respondent-driven sampling survey

The San Francisco study:

HIV Prevalence, Risk Behaviors, Health Care Use, and Mental Health Status of Transgender Persons: Implications for Public Health Intervention

SupermatchGame

So the real control group would be males receiving counselling as these TIMs so one can actually separate the effect of transitioning from the effect of counselling. And one would need to also differentiate transsexuals from transgender.

Furthermore, I don't remember the details of the study but it must be pointed out that your screenshot only says something like "there is no increased risk of crime after transitioning". Well, that doesn't say anything about decreased risk. I.e. it doesn't say TIMs are less violent. Maybe you chose the wrong screenshot, idk, but this does not really support your argument.

For what it's worth, I would not be surprised if crime patterns are correlated with testosterone levels. And guess what wouldn't be needed under self ID? HRT. Admittedly that's just speculation, although supported by evidence of voyeurism e.g Target or multiple cases of men claiming womanhood being sent to female prisons or simply observing Twitter and the sheer amount of hatred and threats and abuse TIMs direct at women that do not comply.

Charlie do you have links to the SAN Fran and the Ontario research?

Article from the weekend
www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/transgender-killers-kept-apart-after-12493525

re Sophie Eastwood & Alex Stewart
(extract)
"Despite their new female identities neither have had surgery, and fellow inmates complained that they felt intimidated around the pair because of their behaviour.

A source said: “It got beyond the joke. No one has a problem with transgender people. But they do have a problem when they suspect that the transgender identities are being used as a way of getting a cushier time in prison. It totally undermines real transgender prisoners.”

discussed here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242264-Transgender-murders-in-Scottish-womens-prison

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242178-Transgender-killers-split-up-by-prison-chiefs

Indeed CharlieParley. Furthermore, the Ministry of Justice have confirmed Fair Play for Women's statistics that nearly half of transwomen in prison are there for sex offences.

I've got to say, it pisses me off that transactivists' argument tries to drill down into the most irrelevant minutiae in order to prove a point that is blisteringly obvious to everyone else.

Their tactic to stop debate is to threaten and punch women.

Men who threaten and punch women, then trying to claim that they are women and we are wrong for objecting to them in our space.

The answer is no. And that's the end of it. That's not beginning of a negotiation.

I felt like I was on Crackerjack & really needed to be given a cabbage... she looked at me blankly and then I felt a bit older too!

Teehee. I actually do have a Blue Peter badge, you know. I got one for writing a story and sending it in. I wonder if they still do them.

(Wasn't referring to your post Charlie)

Is that what you do every time someone challenges misinformation, and posts factually correct decent arguments?

Degenerate into silliness, ridicule and insults?

Checked in to see if there's more on Posie, instead we're back to arguing the toss about male patterns of criminality...

The Swedish study only and exclusively dealt with post-op transsexuals. That's a minute number of people in the UK and entirely irrelevant to the self-id debate.

The literature on male sexuality, male violence and male behaviour is extensive, internationally there's empirical evidence from hundreds of thousands of men proving conclusively the danger they can pose to women. Non-op, non-med transidentified men are unadalterated men, however much they express femme. They show male pattern sexuality and male pattern criminality at the same rate as all other men and therefore do not belong in female spaces.

There's also a contemporary study from San Francisco (2002) which showed a far far worse crime rate for trans people than the Swedish one - from memory, more than 2 in 3 of the subjects had actually been in prison at some point. It showed extremely clearly that unsupported trans people may turn to survival crime incl prostitution and violent crime in greater numbers than the general population.

And then there's the Ontario study from 2012. It included post-op transsexuals as well as self-identified transwomen who used their male appendage to have penetrative sex with women. IOW, the latter showed unambiguous male pattern sexuality and there's no reason to assume they wouldn't also show male pattern criminality.

At the same rate as other men. Not worse than other men. Not singularly dangerous or perverted or devious. Just the same as other men.

No better or worse.

Which is why I do not consent to sharing a space with any non-med, non-op transidentified man where I am in a vulnerable position.

I was stood in the supermarket at the weekend with an armful of groceries. I commented to the woman next to me in the queue that I felt like I was on Crackerjack & really needed to be given a cabbage... she looked at me blankly and then I felt a bit older too!

I claim my Crackerjack pencil!

Please someone just give him his blankety blank cheque book and pen.

Oh I wondered when he would show up. Do you think he is paid by the word?

JoanSummers No but we can ignore you and your clueless drivel

You can. And I can continue to refute misinformation and take part in the forum

Id also like to read women discussing this without constant demands for evidence from someone who refuses to accept any and won't provide any themselves.

I did provide some evidence including the words of the original researcher.

And I did that because Pratchet initially brought up: Let's not forget the other findings about male criminal patterns retained after transition.

And Ereshkigal said Let's hear the evidence for why they wouldn't have a male pattern of criminality, SMG.

Yep. The claim that they are any different is for the claimant to prove. It has not been satisfactorily demonstrated.

There is no claimant here. You don't have to 'satisfactorily demonstrate' that people are innocent. You have to prove they are guilty.

Sorry OnTheList, I was directing that at the timewaster above you. I'm switching on my tedious man filter now :)

No but we can ignore you and your clueless drivel :)

Sorry now you've lost me. Are you arguing with you or me?

I am not arguing as such. Both those saying the study proves transwomen are as violent as men, and those saying the study proves the opposite...I don't see what use the study is for either view because...its only post operative transsexuals who were studied in the first place!

I know people want this to get back on topic, and this will be my last post on it besides checking for updates on posie

Joan, Lang

So you don't think it is appropriate that people should be able to challenge potentially damaging lies and misinformation? Particularly when it is damaging to trans women?

You can't bully me into silence.

JoanSummers Where is the evidence that men who identify as anything other than 'men' have different behaviour as any other men?

I wasn't talking about 'men who identify as anything other than men'. The conversation was at that point about trans women.

I'm so fed up of women being asked to prove silly stuff like this. You're the one begging the question Supermatch

No - I was responding to a malicious poster who was implying that transitioned/ trans women were a crime risk in female only spaces. There is no evidence today that they are.

you show us peer reviewed indisputable evidence that men who don't identify as men are different to other men, in criminal behaviour or any other way.

I don't need to. My comments were about trans women who have been through a medical process, not 'men who don't identify as men'. I'm not claiming that men who don't identify as men should be in women only spaces.

Another one wishing the thread would get back to its topic - Posie Parker and the outcome of the police investigation.

Also

So in short, I don't really see what use that study is when considering 'trans people' today.

Goes for both those arguing again st the study, and those who use the study as 'proof' that transwomen are just as violent as men.

Sorry now you've lost me. Are you arguing with you or me?

OnTheList OK lets say that better mental health care

And better trans health care also according to the researcher

did mean transwomen transitioning later had a crime rate similar to natal females. Why are transactivists fighting to remove mental health care from transsexual people?

No idea.

It seems nuts.

Yes

But then again, most stuff transactivists fight fopr seems nuts, as they are on the whole just MRAs in disguise.

Quite possibly yes. I'm not claiming to speak for anyone other than myself.

I have always been willing to believe that post op transpeople have a lower crime rate than men. Because I believe testosterone plays a part in how violent and such men are, and lowering testosterone will lower the violence. This also makes sense when you add in that transmen commit more crime when on testosterone. I think a larger part of it all is socialization mind, and I don't think you can realistically remove that aspect no matter what. But yeah, lowering crime rate makes sense to me. BUT, this is for post operative transsexual people.

Yes.

You have to consider that these days, trans means anyone who says they are trans. And this includes crossdressers. And with sexual crime, crossdressing is a very very common 'hobby' among sex offenders. I think this accounts for 50% of transpeople in prison being there for sex offenses. As obviously, if crossdressers are classed as trans, and sex offenders are overrepresented in crossdressers, then sex offenders will be overrepresented in the 'trans population'.

Yes. That's why I don't want crossdressing males in female only spaces.

SO in short, I don't really see what use that study is when considering 'trans people' today.

It is of use when there is a small but vocal radical feminist voice, (daily on this site) claiming that no medically/ surgically transitioned women should be in female only spaces because they have a high crime rate.