Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

TheUterati Got it in one!

Ann Sinnott, Lbr cncllr, shared it.

Is Ann Sinnott slightly GC? I note that she was up against and beat Sarah Brown in the council elections and didn't send an acceptably gracious tweet to SB after SB grudgingly offered congrats.

The Uterati - you've taken the words out of my mouth.

And the fact that these 'transsexual allies' are coming onto this thread calling each other 'she' indicates that they still feel entitled to claim womanhood.

Men in womanface, appropriating our sex. See it for what it is.

JC - I'm going to take time out from my self imposed sanction of ignoring you and tell you that firstly telling me what to do after you've taken the piss out me goes down like a bucket of cold sick, and that your pal from Angels said in their post that what we know happened didn't happen, and if it did I'm being oversensitive.

Because of course many of us didn't see you do this with our own eyes and in real time - and to more than one MNetter.

So fuck off with patronising me. And sending me messages that are clearly designed to manipulate me. You're not nearly as subtle or as clever as you think you are. And your cavalry can fuck off as well.

My apologies were not false. I realise that I have upset Sweary and I never intended to do that. So I am sorry. What else can I say? You can take that any way you want but it is sincere.

I think the right thing to do now is for me to leave Mumsnet by cancelling my account. I can see that it is the best way to try to help here as it has got too far and I will only be disruptive otherwise.

The purpose behind this letter is too important to let me get in the way.

So Ceinwen, thank you for your support and I know you will do your best.

Please the rest of you, just give her a chance. She is for real.

Ceinwen2/Kay

Well done on the signing the letter. I think, as I said, it is a timely intervention - the genderists have overreached and are risking a right wing backlash that will hurt transsexuals as a group and which also won't be any more pleasant for women than the genderists are. I think this is welcome and I appreciate it's hard to go against the loudest voices in the various trans lobbies.

However, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't appreciate that you've been all over this forum for a while now, giving the impression that you're not trans but a trans ally and trying to persuade the feminists here into pro-trans positions. This is quite deceitful behaviour and not the way to win allies among feminists. It's certainly not solidarity.

I also don't appreciate your gaslighting for other trans people who have behaved badly towards some FWR feminists and who still can't bring themselves to take responsibility for that or do anything but issue I'm sorry if you were offended faux apologies.

All that said, I look forward to interacting with you on this board, whether we are agreeing or disagreeing, now that we're all being honest about ourselves.

on twitter. 🥜.

I'm disrupting the flow of this thread and haven't caught up, and actually hate to refer to LM but I really do not understand how LM can label this letter as "transmisogynistic" and "trash" and is going to "take this further" after Ann Sinnott, Lbr cncllr, shared it.

actual face.

What planet are we on???

Sweary, whatever you think of me, that is understandable but please do not get angry at Ceinwen.

She is a really good soul. I will very happily bow out of here permanently and leave her to it if you will at least trust her and let her build bridges.

Just give her the chance and I will go for good, I promise.

But I truly am really sorry. too.

The letter is in ‘most viewed’ on the Guardian website.

Oh actually I guess they may have just been questioned by police rather than arrested. But I think my point stands - that is a scary thing for many people and something people will try and avoid.

SwearyG I know I said I wouldn't post here again but I've had a message this morning saying "oh look, everything you said would happen has". It's like reading a script.

thank you for this letter.

Oh look. Gaslighting. How original.

They know, Ereshkigal, as Kay used her user name on Angels to sign as I did, partly because we wanted them to know. None of them will be surprised by our position.

I am taking some time with the family this weekend as they are scared with the hostile reaction to this letter. But they understand this was necessary.

I thank Ceinwen for her defence.

I will also apologise, because I do understand that in trying to get our views across to the moderate people who are on Angels as we both genuinely feel this is the right approach I very likely overdid the cross referencing of what I was finding in here and by doing so in friendly terms to them might have accidentally said something inappropriate about Sweary somewhere.

I do, as you know, overwrite things and that never works well on the internet. I need to practice brevity.

It would not have been my intent to hurt her, but as it quite obviously did given the reaction it was clearly wrong. So I am truly sorry.

Will not happen again as both of us have now firmly burnt all our bridges with the trans community so we will not be welcome anywhere there and at least I am less popular somewhere else than here for a change.

We signed well aware of the consequences and because it was the right thing to do. And we are both ready to defend what we said out there and go public with our own names too if necessary.

One of the reasons I am spending time with my family this weekend is to prepare them for that possibility.

@okdok have you seen this thread? It's about someone challenging the current YHA policy which allows mixed biological-sex accommodation even though it's advertised as single sex. It might be helpful to post your awful experience there too? I'm so sorry it happened to you. At least when it did you could report to police without risk of being charged with a hate crime. I think it's important to speak up because so many people say "this won't happen"..... but if the changes to the law go through there will be even fewer women willing to speak up for risk of being prosecuted - we've seen posie parker and linda bellos arrested already before there are even changes to the law.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3240061-I-have-taken-a-stand?pg=2

Yes; I know that I was " outing myself". They won't be surprised.The boats are burning merrily. The current crop of regular posters there assume that they have their finger on the zeitgeist, and that people who would sign that letter are " out of touch" with the modern world. We might be. But I'm convinced that we aren't.

Yes, things have changed a bit. People are more accepting, etc., in a chat over coffee sort of way. But things have not changed to the point where the average person buys the views of the more strident trans activists on " what makes a person a woman", in practical terms. They are mostly young.

I've been who I am now for nearly two decades, having been thinking about transition at certain times since the 60s . We change; it takes time. Others like me see it that way.

Doing it all in a few weeks is nonsense, even for the mental welfare of those who might do it. Never mind the fact that to expect to be accepted and acceptable to natal females overnight is a triumph of blind faith over reality. And it does, sadly, increase the chances of people abusing the system. It would not happen often ,I feel, but it might well.

Ceinwen

Many of us have read the Angels forum posts about Mumsnet. We know they read here a lot and as I understand it many aren't impressed by the letter. You must realise you're outing yourself to them as a signatory?

Baroque: yes.

I also agree with pencil This is a TS campaign, not an add-on to the fight for women & girls' rights. TS have their own dog in this race. We will disagree on loads of stuff. Nevertheless there will be areas we can form political alliances (as opposed to being 'allies'). We can only do that if we acknowledge our differences, then agree to table them so we can fight together on specific issues.

The letter was written by transexual males, about transexual males, with the aim to protect transexual males. The fact self id will harm women and girls too is just coincidental.

I'll say well-done too, but I see no reason to thank you

Thanks everyone who signed the letter. I think we have the same ‘bigger picture’ at heart. And how wonderful that Guardian readers may start to question their ‘trans ally’-ness and think, wait a minute, what exactly am I supporting. Very appreciative of your words. to all.

Here I go, taking a chance.Always impulsive.

I recently joined Mumsnet, under this, "assumed" name, because I was and am concerned about abuse I may get from various quarters.I hate dishonesty, in myself as much as in others. Ceinwen in not my name. I am, in fact, one of the signers of the Guardian letter.I'm still concerned about the backlash, but this is no longer the time to be evasive . I am Kay M. I was until the other day an increasingly uncomfortable and criticised member of the forum that Jaycee is said to have laughed at / abused someone called " Sweary". I can say that if she did, I did not see it, and could not find it, and find it hard to believe. For some while, she and I were not the " flavour of the month" on there, and she doggedly stuck to her guns, as it were, and was not in a position to make fun of anyone on Mumsnet.

That forum has a "regular posting crowd" who have views that you know about. There are a number of other people who have views similar to that of Jaycee and me, but who stay silent for fear of getting " the treatment" . It happens on social media, not just there. The site is largely well run and well intentioned, but things get heated.

What you see on Mumsnet of Jaycee is exactly as she always is. Courteous, agonizingly concerned about being fair. This is not an " assumed manner ". As far as I know it is the real Jaycee.

I've taken a chance and "outed myself" because I was very encouraged by the welcome that our little letter received from many. As a point of detail, the "signers" do not all know each other, and are not a " group".