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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

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Scabbersley · 05/05/2018 08:33

But sports have assessed the situation and decided that to best achieve their aims, that binary need not be religiously adhered to. They have the capacity for flexibility you see.

They have not decided this at all. Most sports bodies are agonising over it.

RatRolyPoly · 05/05/2018 08:31

Doesn't give a fuck about women.

Yeah, sorry, sport sets it's own agenda. It doesn't follow yours.

In sport, men, women, transpeople, the disabled, young, old; they're all equally valued.

Sport only gives the same fucks about women as it does about anybody else.

No more. No less.

Why does it call two pretty major categories ‘male’ and ‘female’ then?

Oh, you mean men's and women's? Yeah, that's because when you want to split sport into categories to ensure safety and fairness, that's the broad stroke. But sports have assessed the situation and decided that to best achieve their aims, that binary need not be religiously adhered to. They have the capacity for flexibility you see.

It's somewhat different, but we do also have two categories, one for able bodies, one for those with disabilities. Not everyone in the able-bodied category is not disabled. They're just suitably disabled to not be considered able-bodied. So there are disabled athletes in the able-bodied category; the binary is not strictly maintained.

Scabbersley · 05/05/2018 08:30

(the football thing is a red herring - mixed football up to age 18 now - trans girls would be welcome as boys are already playing girls)

Pratchet · 05/05/2018 08:29

Tinycitrus: they have to accept that their future in sport has been destroyed. Perhaps they could go into hairdressing.

Scabbersley · 05/05/2018 08:28

Perhaps you could explain to my dd why she has to do netball in PE rather than football. I'm saying it's because she's a member of the class that produces eggs.

Tinycitrus · 05/05/2018 08:26

While we are being lovely and inclusive, what does this mean for young women coming up in sport?

All three of mine are sporty - athletics, football, martial arts. Winning matters to them. They want to win more than anything (I know, how unfeminine)

So what happens when a transgirl joins? What happens when my daughter is sparring with a 15year old trans girl? Or when my other daughter faces them on the football field? The women’s game is different to the men’s game for physiological reasons.

Can you possibly see it from their perspective? Do they have to accept that the trans girl is simply a better version of them?

Scabbersley · 05/05/2018 08:25

Sorry rat but that's not true.

I can't think of a sport off hand that doesn't segregate apart from equestrian (and I've done a few in my time)

Scabbersley · 05/05/2018 08:24

Doesn't give a fuck about sticking rigidly to chromosome-based categories

Grin
jellyfrizz · 05/05/2018 08:21

Doesn't give a fuck about sticking rigidly to chromosome-based categories.

Why does it call two pretty major categories ‘male’ and ‘female’ then?

Pratchet · 05/05/2018 08:19

Terf didn't you realise Katerina Johnson Thomson runs the 200m with her penchant for nail varnish and handbags, not her legs.

TERFragetteCity · 05/05/2018 08:16

How do I know that Transwoman are not women?

It took over 100 women being raped for anyone to do anything about John Warboys - however just one man to complain about being misgendered to get a taxi driver sacked.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238991-Charlotte-takes-a-taxi

'Chromosome based categories' are alive and kicking and don't ever think otherwise.

TERFragetteCity · 05/05/2018 08:13

I can draw you a Venn diagram if you like.

I have a few already drawn up.

Trans Park Run Deletion
Trans Park Run Deletion
Trans Park Run Deletion
Pratchet · 05/05/2018 08:12

Doesn't give a fuck about sticking rigidly to chromosome-based categories

Doesn't give a fuck about women. Fixed it for you.

RatRolyPoly · 05/05/2018 08:00

jellyfrizz sport doesn't care.

Sport cares about inclusivity, and safe and meaningful competition.

Doesn't give a fuck about sticking rigidly to chromosome-based categories.

Sorry, but it doesn't.

jellyfrizz · 05/05/2018 07:56

A transitioned individual with drastically lowered testosterone may not be able to compete in any meaningful way, and may not be safe if included in the men's competition. (I say "may" because no doubt it depends on the sport, the hormone levels and other factors as well perhaps.)

I think it’s been said before on this thread but again; weaker male == female.

RatRolyPoly · 05/05/2018 07:31

Odette you're wrong about sport; forcing transitioning/transitioned individuals may well be excluding them from participating at all.

That is because sport has the fundamental aim to include people in a way that is safe and competitive (i.e. no forgone conclusion).

A transitioned individual with drastically lowered testosterone may not be able to compete in any meaningful way, and may not be safe if included in the men's competition. (I say "may" because no doubt it depends on the sport, the hormone levels and other factors as well perhaps.)

This is tantamount to exclusion. It's certainly exclusion from participating in the same meaningful way as everybody else.

It is for this reason that the different sports have the power to set criteria for participation, the aim of which is to include transpeople in such a way that is safest for them and other competitors, and gives rise to meaningful competition. They set these criteria (usually specific testosterone levels for a period of time - at least a year) with the best scientific evidence in mind and with consideration for their own sport.

They do it to allow the safest, fairest participation of everyone, and if they deem it best to include transwomen in the women's category to achieve those aims then I for one support them.

0dette · 05/05/2018 05:14

This straw man is put up time and time again.

Women say “ we are happy for trans identifying women to participate in sport. We just don’t want people with penises in women’s changing rooms and we don’t want to be forced to compete against natal men “.

Trans activists say “ oh so you don’t want us to do sport / you want us dead/ you say we don’t exist / you are hateful bigots “.

And round and round it goes.

I’ve never yet seen any TRA actually address these two specific concerns. We just get endless pleas to be nice because natal men’s feelings are more important than natal women’s.

spontaneousgiventime · 04/05/2018 16:48

The problem here is, yes, all should be allowed to participate in sports, I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. However, changing rooms (as an example) would mean (as an example) Muslim women would not be allowed to go into them if there are TIM's allowed in there. This is completely removing an entire segment of biological women's rights to keep fit and participate in sport. Do we disregard our Muslim sisters to allow TIM's into changing rooms? I say - Hell NO!

R0wantrees · 04/05/2018 16:41

I haven't read the whole thread but in the last couple of months, I've seen similar ones.

The focus whether on professional or amateur sports usually turns to the rights / discrimination against the trans women who wish to compete and discussion often becomes about specific individuals.

Inclusion policies in sport start from this point and are often written by or with people who are transgender- which is logical.
Who would deny the importance of all people taking part in sport especially groups who have experienced exclusion?

The issue though is that in supporting one group's inclusion, there seems (from what I have read) rarely a consideration of the possible impact on women and girls. How might we hear from those women and girls who have become excluded?

If the ideology behind the policy is that 'trans women are women' & 'trans girls are girls' how can there be?

When Liz Truss MP supported Mumsnet's allowing of free speech, The Daily Mail quoted,
"Last night Delia Johnston, the former head of a charity campaigning for trans sportspeople to be allowed to compete in their chosen gender, condemned Ms Truss. Ms Johnston said: ‘She is giving kudos to Mumsnet who are particularly vicious on this particular front. Truss could be investigated for backing a group that is effectively advocating violence against the transgender community. She may be a terf in disguise.’"

Delia Johnston talked very positively in an article about how she had been involved in improving inclusion policies in sports a couple of years ago:
metro.co.uk/2015/10/21/transgender-woman-on-her-desperate-struggle-with-her-new-identity-and-how-she-was-accepted-by-the-fa-but-not-her-daughter-5376352/

She raised the question, "I play a lot of badminton. When I started transitioning, I was getting involved in my local gym. The NHS demand you keep yourself fit and healthy [if you are transitioning]. But how the hell can you do that if a gym is against you? It’s a Catch 22."
I believe that when #ManFriday demonstrated the potential impact on women & girls of SwimEngland's policy, Jane Fae raised a similar point about how important it was for trans women to swim.

However it is also true that some women and girls may be impacted by these policies, especially if what it is to be a woman or girl is determined by self-id whether that is in losing positions in weightlifting teams, places to run in the Boston Marathon, attending women-only swimming sessions or because they are not able to share changing rooms etc for reasons which should not be blanketly dismissed as 'bigotry'.

Delia Johnson also comments in the article,
"Another hot topic that surrounds transgender people in sport is the issue of gender categorisation – something which Delia feels strongly about: At what point is it fair for a man who has transitioned into woman to play for the women’s team, and vice versa? According to their 2003 rules the IOC [International Olympic Committee] says you need to be on two years of medical hormones before you can play on the team of your assigned gender – something Delia believes is the wrong approach. ‘I think those rules are stupid,’ she says. ‘The requirements are extremely demanding and not all individuals can achieve what is required in time. By then, they may have passed their peak in terms of performance.’ Delia argues that physically, you change greatly, quickly, once you start taking female hormones. ‘When I play badminton now, my mind says I can do that shot but my body says, “in your dreams”.

Her focus is on the physical impact of transition, not a comparison with those born female and this is significant.

The need to encourage increased participation of girls and women in sport is widely accepted. www.sportengland.org/research/understanding-audiences/sport-and-women/
www.sportengland.org/our-work/women/this-girl-can/

We need to be able to support the inclusion of people who are transgender and also women and girls.

To discuss this is not transphobic.

Scabbersley · 04/05/2018 16:12

Addressing transwomen as men isn't very polite. But that's as far as it goes. It's not actual violence.

Tbh trans people would help themselves if they had a slight sense of humour about it.

OvaHere · 04/05/2018 16:06

Addressing trans women as "men" is transphobic. And trying to blame that transphobia on the historical actions of men as a whole is as logically invalid as it is morally dubious.

Male socialisation and misogyny runs deep in many men and transwomen are no different in that regard. Just because they announce a gender change doesn't that we women can't see the behaviour patterns that still exist and be on the receiving end of it.

Go read the transwidows thread on here and listen to some of the abusive behaviour they have suffered at the hands of partners who became trans after marriage.

What is logically invalid is suggesting that people can change sex and that women have to accept it because men say we should. The morally dubious thing at play here is the gaslighting and coercive treatment of women in the mess that is identity politics.

OrchidInTheSun · 04/05/2018 15:57

Transwomen are a subset of men, not of women. If they were a subset of women, natal women could become transwomen and we cannot. Therefore they are a subset of men.

I can draw you a Venn diagram if you like.

richmarr · 04/05/2018 15:15

@florafox

As I've already clarified, I'm not proposing any such change. Please actually read this stuff rather than just skimming, otherwise there's little to no hope of doing anything but shouting across each other.

See my previous comment:

"And I'm not proposing anything, other than that these people not be made to feel unwelcome at social events like ParkRun."

This is false, the reports you have posted do not make the latter claim.

Do they make that exact claim, about that exact situation? No. But that's a disingenuous bar to set when you've held your own evidence to no such bar... oh wait... you haven't provided any.

The claims they do make are close enough and numerous enough that (considering the potentially fatal repurcussions and absolute lack of contrary evidence) the only reasonable choice is to start from that assumption.

Yes women have long been expected to prioritise the feelings of men over their ability to tell the truth and to expect privacy, dignity, safety and the opportunity to participate in public life. Meet the new boss...

Addressing trans women as "men" is transphobic. And trying to blame that transphobia on the historical actions of men as a whole is as logically invalid as it is morally dubious.

M0RVEN · 04/05/2018 11:42

I have a question for those posters who think that’s it’s OK for TIM to register and run at parkrun as female/ women :

Is it morally right / fair to others for me ( a 48yo woman ) to register and run at parkrun as a 78 year old woman ?

After all, it’s not against parkrun rules.
I personally believe that I’m not advantaged over other 78 year olds.
I have proof that I’m now slower than I was 5 years ago, before I decided to transition.
I identify as a 78 year old, wear their clothes and make up.
I have the hobbies of a 78 year old.
It would mean the world to me to see VW75-80 beside my name.
Parkrun is supposed to be inclusive.

To be clear, I’m not asking if it’s possible, because I know it is. Anyone can register online.

I’m asking if it’s morally acceptable. Does it show respect for other runners ? Is it in the spirit of parkrun ?

ShotsFired · 04/05/2018 10:03

I just wanted to reiterate that no-one said anything about badge

@Whatisoccuring Yes yes there was a reference to marking trans woman as 'assisted'. That is transphobic. You are proposing to publicly identify trans women. It could be compared to the identifying badge that a far right regime insisted on in 1940

Putting aside your shiny Godwin Award for a minute, you do know that "assisted" is already an actual thing in parkrun? Surely you didn't just glibly assume that people made it up for the purposes of this thread without even checking?

Blind people with companions run as assisted
People running with their dogs (canicross) are assisted
People with biological/physical advantages not normally found in their peer group can run assisted.

It's not some kind of "weirdo klaxon"