Transing children

Short extract from the Scottish schools document I linked to above:

Please note: by age 2 or 3, a child starts to develop a sense of being a male or female. Some children with a learning disability/additional support needs, however, may not develop gender awareness at the same age and stage as their peers. It is important that children with ASN are actively taught gender identity so that they understand the gender assigned to them at birth.

Conversely, this often requires blatant ‘boy/girl’ activities. However, once a child understands the gender assigned to them at birth, teaching and practice can diversify to include non-stereotypical approaches and allow the child to explore their True Gender identity.

Datun

Are you thinking of this guidance for schools in Scotland?
www.centralsexualhealth.org/media/8009/guidance-for-schools-trans-gender-variance.pdf

Thread here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3101028-To-think-this-breath-takingly-ill-thought-out-regressive-sexist-nonsense-and-is-a-real-danger-to-children-with-special-needs

("extreme male brain theory....I ask you! What absolute pillock came up with that idea).

“social communication and social imagination. I am hypothesising (and I'm wondering why the hell the experts aren't) that since those two prevent toddlers and children from picking up on and responding to social cues they will not internalise other people's gendered expectations of them. They are IMMUNE to gender. As they get older this becomes very confusing because they can see that others FEEL their gender. Indeed other people's brains will, I concede have changed, since brains are plastic, to incorporate those gender identities. They then receive the transgender narratives from people they know and through social media and, particularly if they are undiagnosed, as so many girls are, they think they have the answer that explains the difference. Do you understand therefore what I mean when I sat the coincidence of ASD and GID is EVIDENCE that gender is socially constructed?“
V interesting.

But, and I'm trying to remember this correctly, they were almost forcing a gender on these children, in order to find out whether or not they rejected it, and could therefore be classed as transgender.

I remember this too, was it also this one that suggested transition cured autism?

Re: Ken Zucker and the studies on the attractiveness of boys

This insinuation of an unsavoury research topic or unhealthy interest in the attractiveness of pre-pubescent boys (often also claimed as "sexual" attractiveness studies) is made again and again by TRAs to discredit Zucker.

So for anyone who cares to know, Zucker et al actually published three studies in which adults rated both girls and boys as to commonly understood traits of attractiveness (cute, tomboyish, pretty, handsome, rugged etc) in children.

These studies form a continuation of earlier and basis for later research into how adults interact with children based on the adults' perception of their attractiveness and joins a much wider body of research into how society responds differently to people who are more or less attractive.

For instance, when the most successful people in the world are looked at as a group, in terms of their attractiveness they are found to be above average. Now are they successful because their good looks have given them more confidence or self-esteem? Or is it because other people will actually be more willing to do something favourable for a beautiful person than an ugly one?

Of course, there's a whole range of other questions people are researching (and I have no idea what the answers are).

The studies looking at the attractiveness of children were prompted by Zucker et al noticing that parents would often recall that their gender dysphoric boys for instance were considered to be especially beautiful babies.

They wanted to find out if this attractiveness was perceived by other adults too at this later stage of childhood and if gender dysphoric boys were considered prettier than other, non-dysphoric boys. And if this might make a difference in how adults treated the children and how the children saw themselves.

Here's the conclusion of one of the studies, the full text can be downloaded free at this link

The results of the present study suggest that a more feminine-like physical appearance is another variable that distinguishes boys with gender identity disorder from other boys. The extent to which appearance plays a significant role in their social interactions and self-perceptions requires further empirical study.

SarahCarer

There was a specific thread here a few months ago about ASD/GID.

It was something about the fact that, as you say, children with autism are often 'immune' from gender.

But, and I'm trying to remember this correctly, they were almost forcing a gender on these children, in order to find out whether or not they rejected it, and could therefore be classed as transgender.

I've tried to find it since, because it was breathtaking in its shock factor. But I've had no luck. And I've had no luck trying to google it, either.

I don't know if anyone else can remember it, or happened to bookmark it, though?

@supermatchgame l would love to hear of any expert pursuing research into the emergence of gender identity in children with autism in a way that isn't ridiculously begging the question ("extreme male brain theory....I ask you! What absolute pillock came up with that idea).

Thanks Datun. Gosh you're a bit of a hero of mine I must admit. And to all the insightful, fierce, intelligent gender critical feminists on FWR I wish I could show you how your words have helped, how happy my dd is (who you wouldn't distinguish from a boy at all at first glance). My reading it all, and then becoming pretty GNC myself has helped her believe the authenticity of the story that you really can be you and there is no mould to fit into. And sometimes society's expectations of you will stink to high heaven and that has to be challenged. And there are others who will stand shoulder to shoulder with you in challenging it.

@Terfmore oops sorry I think mine was meant for @farfrom too! It's getting late

SarahCarer

for you.

Your questioning and challenging on here, is all the more remarkable and gutsy because of your position.

@supermatchgame thank you for your words of support. My dd has agreed to me writing a blog on autism and gender identity and has said she'll help me with the techy elements so maybe my story will get out there (very anonymously of course to protect her privacy). Perhaps @farfrom can bring me up to speed with the latest terms! By the way some children with autism do see the gender rules to a greater extent than my dd and often interpret them a lot more simplistically than neurotypical children e.g. conforming very strongly to the stereotypes by following those rules as best they can. They may well develop the opposite gender identity as they pursue that line of thought (with ASD level obsessive zeal!).

SarahCarer - my response was to FarFrom :-)

@Terfmore thank you for that. I am not seeking to criticise clinicians necessarily but I do think that the research base for how they are treating patients is woefully inadequate and they seem to acknowledge this. One of the key things informing their approach in my opinion is the idea that transgenderism is the same as homosexuality and that any response other than a complete affirmation of the person's entire narrative around their identity would be harmful. Barraker's post about this up thread is excellent. I am much more inclined to think that the massively entrenched homophobia that is the scurge of our society and which influences a lot of thinking around masculinity actually contributes very much to positivity around trans. I have searched my own heart about whether I would have worked so hard to resist puberty blockers if my dd was a boy. Could I have faced asking him to allow his body to develop into a man knowing he much preferred to wear dresses and makeup? I would have been so afraid that people (in particular other men) would continually reject and vilify him and laugh at him behind his back. I'm bearing my soul here.

The point of a public forum is to debate. So if someone says something you don't agree with do as you have done and disagree. Not sure what your point is?

on these boards posters post as if they know the answers when i am sure they don’t know them.

That is a bizarre accusation to make.

SarahCarer So if they are immune to gender it seems even more strange that they should start to develop a GI that is in conflict with their sex? They can see that they are the same sex as (same sexed) people around them yet they build a narrative that they are not the same? But yes it does indicate a strong social element. There is a strong social element to all aspects of identity as we have agreed. When that identity starts to contradict physical sex - I think something more than just socialisation is going on. Hence the biopsychosocial model.

Sorry if this is oversimplistic - obviously I don't have your knowledge and experience in the area of ASD.

they can see that others FEEL their gender
Yes and despite that they develop a GI that is contrary not only to their sex, but to these
messages they are receiving from others?

They then receive the transgender narratives from people they know and through social media and, particularly if they are undiagnosed, as so many girls are, they think they have the answer that explains the difference.

Yes I can see that this could explain why some some ASD children, particularly with social media/ media, can end up going down the route of thinking GID is an explanation for what they are experiencing. I am also open to the idea that for some ASD individuals there is an underpinning neurological issue that can affect all three impairments and GI. It could also be possible that the three impairments interfere with the development of 'normal' GI and leads to confusion. In some cases this entirely social interference with GI may not actually be typical GID but some other variant specific to ASD individuals.

I agree this greater awareness could lead more young people to seek treatment - especially more likely for children with ASD as they are more vulnerable. The director of the clinic appears very aware of this:

Woman's Hour Interview: There is greater knowledge about specialist gender clinics and the pathways into them, and an increased awareness of the possibilities around physical treatments for young adolescents.
The rise of social media also plays a part as it sponsors a fast developing shared language around gender identity and expression.

I don't think that negates the need for treatment for some people and I don't think it negates the development of GID (as in a GI conflicting with their physical sex) in all children with ASD. I agree it does complicate it though.

I am hypothesising (and I'm wondering why the hell the experts aren't)

I think a lot are exploring, debating and researching it. But you are referring to a subset of what is already an extremely small number ie. 2000 referrals out of the whole country to the clinic. According to ASD magazine:

Between 8 and 10 percent of children and adolescents seen at gender clinics around the world meet the diagnostic criteria for autism

I appreciate not all end up as referrals to the clinic. In part due to the work you have done with your own family. I admire you hugely and it is even more reason why your story should be out there as a role model and to encourage alternative considerations.

On

Sarah - I’m sorry your heart is at steak- there is nothing on earth that compares with that.
I’m sorry I missed that and of course you can express your view as strongly as you like.
My point is about cause for transgender- on these boards posters post as if they know the answers when i am sure they don’t know them.
Clinicians try to help these young people live their lives as best they can. None of this is easy but I’m these boards posters post as if it is.

@farfrom I have seen the whole process playing out in my own child, which gives me a level of insight and a clear understanding of the risks. My own heart is at stake. Have I expressed my position too strongly for you?

Sarah- your response like so many others’ surprises me in the certainty in which you express your view. You may be right but you may not. And the fallout either way could be immense.
By the way diagnostic assessments are moving away from the triad to dsm v.

There is also evidnece relating to testosterone at different points in utero impacting on Asd. But none of any of this is conclusive. Yet I notice there are not 8 million threads worrying about whether or not asd has genetic or social roots.
It is very hard to determine either for anything. Yet these threads are amazingly full of confidence of cause.

Yes @oldcrone definitely. But it IS socially constructed and for most people it conforms to social norms for their gender. Gender critical feminists, however are all, effectively, gender non conforming because we repeatedly question that early socialisation. It is the reason why we are endlessly talking about transgenderism. It threatens our world view, our identity and our cause (to free ourselves and others, including children identified as trans from gender based oppression)

@supermatchgame "Why would it be ok to try CBT for GID but not sexual orientation? A valid answer could be because GID requires medication and surgery and it would be best to avoid that. I agree. It would be best if anyone could avoid medication and surgery. Ken Zucker has tried that with children though. I actually supported his work. I don't think he was transphobic or homophobic. But I find it odd that in the whole world only one single person was openly trying it. That actually astonishes me... that in recent times there is only a record of one person openly trying to discourage a transgender outcome in children - in the entire world? That must tell us something surely?"

Well firstly if a gay person is experiencing distress and patterns of self loathing I absolutely do think they need CBT to help them develop posit I've thought patterns and if the attitudes of others around them are contributing e.g. Signs of homophobia then again I think there needs to be some family intervention too!

With regard to the second part of your paragraph I refer you to the millenia old way of thinking that we have nothing like shed that I described in my earlier post. The idea that gender is a social construct is fairly new, albeit well evidenced, and it hasn't soaked into wider consciousness at all

As they get older this becomes very confusing because they can see that others FEEL their gender.

What does this mean? I have been gradually coming to the conclusion that the only people who have a 'gender identity' are people who identify as transgender. Are you saying that you think that most people do have some sort of internalised feeling of gender?

And when I say others FEEL their gender I by no means mean everyone and I believe this happens as a result of early socialisation