Puberty blockers Lupron.

link to discussion about DM article with concerns raised about medication:
But refusing to be silenced by such intimidation, Dr Griffin continued: ‘Children can’t vote and they can’t leave school, but we are allowing them to make decisions about their fertility and sexual function. My own feeling is I can’t see how young people’s health can be anything but harmed by these treatments.’

Dr Griffin revealed that she is not the only doctor worried about the ease with which young patients can get transgender medicines.

But she said that many other medical staff are ‘running scared’ because they fear accusations of bigotry, of being out of touch or, at worst, practising ‘conversion therapy’ on transgender people

However, Dr Griffin felt compelled to voice her criticisms because of the potential harm she feels is being done to patients by the eagerness of hospitals to appear politically correct*

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228409-DM-Article-NHS-sex-change-drugs-are-putting-hundreds-of-children-at-risk-each-year-warns-top-doctor

If the NHS does not use Lupron, are there any studies on the drug that they do use- Triptorelin (apparently)?

Most of the studies relating to Triptorelin are in relation to its use as chemical castration to treat paedophiles and some studies just name GNRHa's as a class of drugs rather than referring to specific ones but there does not seem to be a lot of information

I found 2 studies in relation to bone health but they're small and don't seem to have been followed up past the treatment window
"small but significant decrease in bone health" www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1830057
In this one 45% had decreased bone accretion (mineralisation) during treatment www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17964961?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=2

Its only one child and every drug has adverse reactions for some people but this shocked me
"Hypertension During Triptorelin in Childhood
Hypertension in association with triptorelin treatment was reported in a 7-year-old girl with precocious puberty. Triptorelin was administered at 3.75 mg/month. At the age of 10 years and 8 months, she was diagnosed with severe hypertension (150/110 mmHg, > 99th centile for age), which was confirmed on 24-hour monitoring. Echocardiogram revealed concentric left ventricular hypertrophy. She was started on nifedipine and ramipril, while gonadorelin was stopped. Other secondary causes of hypertension were excluded. Her blood pressure improved and antihypertensives were stopped over the next 8 months " www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378608015000288

Also they don't name the GnRHa in this study so it could be lupron, triptorelin etc but its the first one that I've read that actually deals with brain development in puberty suppression and its bloody depressing. Theres only 1 participant and it only follows the child for 3 years but its indicative of what is being done to the brains of suppressed youths. Global IQ(how thats broken down and individual stats on each function such as VCI, PRI, WMI, PSI are available in a table in the paper or stand alone here www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5694455/table/T1/?report=objectonly) went from 80 (low average) to 70 (borderline) and from 9th percentile to 2nd
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5694455/

The more research I do, the madder I get. People can call me a TERF til they're blue in the face, what they are doing to children is wrong.

Sorry - the grammar in that last sentence is appalling!

Really interesting and information posts Terfin - thanks.

I also wonder if there's encouragement from TRAs to transition young is to cut down on the amount of work 'needed' post transition, particularly for men ie extensive hair removal, facial feminisation, voice training etc.

Dr Polly Carmichael from the Tavistock has highlighted the need for long term research and data. There is nuance (as you would expect) in how children and young people are treated...

www.nwhn.org/lupron-what-does-it-do-to-womens-health/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/health/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems

www.hormonesmatter.com/they-say-lupron-safe/

I hope those links work. I have looked up Lupron before and I was very concerned with what I read about side effects. And my reading mainly was about adult women who were prescribed it for conditions such as endometriosis and uterine fibroids. The idea of "off label" use for children is even more worrying.

Another shocking fact is that the Tavistock clinic doesn't follow their guinea pigs after the age of 18, to track long-term health outcomes.
"There's a real need for outcome research"!

twitter.com/Mental_Elf/status/974681135178571776

"I'm not well up on the drug aspect (although I have read up about Lupron) you see to know more. Could I ask how do you know it is used in the UK? And do you know what other drugs are used as puberty blockers? - I'd like to read about them. Thanks"

You can check on the NHS website, just search for 'gnrh agonist', 'puberty blockers', and such like, there's lots and lots of documents.

Here's the official response.

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/documents/591/16-17365_Puberty_blockers.pdf

"The actual prescribing of puberty blockers is done via our subcontracted sites at University College London Hospital or the Leeds General Infirmary, by Consultant Paediatric Endocrinologists.

1. We usually use triptorelin tradenames Gonapeptyl Depot and Decapeptyl SR as these have a licence for children.
2. Leuprorelin (tradename Prostap in the UK) is an alternative second line in case of a drug reaction but doesn't carry a specific child licence or for puberty blockade."

Hence they USUALLY use triptolerin under two different trade names, and they RARELY use leuprorelin.

There's a third drug licensed, which is in the same category

www.medicinesresources.nhs.uk/upload/documents/News/2008%20-%20March/17/Triptorelin1107.pdf

namely goserelin (In the US they also have histrelin, which is used on children in some instances also). However, it's possibly only the two drugs above are ever used on children, though I don't think there's in principle anything to stop a doctor prescribing any of the three UK-licensed drugs. The document notes that the cheapest drug is Decapeptyl SR, a form of Triptolerin, and this is probably a consideration within the NHS context.

If you read the document, it's concerned with prostate cancer, where they have done studies on the various side-effects and the default is to go for the drug with the widest body of evidence, rather than something untested. They all act in the same way, so they do studies on things like how well they are tolerated and then make a decision based on that. I'm not aware of a document suggesting that for child puberty that one drug is better than another, I think it's clear that all the drugs will do the same basic job, what you would really need to do is establish the extent to which the various side effects are essentially implict in the mechanism of action, and which are caused by fundamental differences between the drugs.

Clearly it would be EXTREMELY irresponsible to suggest that, for instance, a study showing a certain side-effect as a result of taking leuprorelin, because the study only covered leuprorelin, because that's American practice, and then say 'oh that's leuprorelin, the UK ones are different', without actually looking at clinical evidence that covered BOTH leuprorelin and triptolerin, and said 'actually these side-effects don't occur with triptolerin, only with leuprorelin'.

Clearly the presumption should be that side-effects from leuprorelin are also caused by triptolerin because the two drugs work in the same way, unless we have evidence to the contrary.

NB note that TRAs such as Mermaids will tell you that these drugs are 'hormone blockers', which suggests a sort of defensive relationship against nasty 'hormones'. This is a false narrative - 'puberty blockers' are themselves hormones, that act to disrupt the normal functioning of the human body.

Clearly in some cases, such as prostate cancer, where the body is diseased , or where there is malfunction of the GnRH receptors, it might be preferable to treat a patient with this class of drug.

However, the TRA rhetoric is that puberty blockers 'buy time'. This is a lie, firstly studies show that nearly 100% of children put on puberty blockers go on to transition, secondly it's quite disturbing to suggest that to disrupt the body's normal function should be the DEFAULT response to usually temporary distress, and thirdly there doesn't seem to be any evidence-based study to suggest that these disruptive hormones, so called 'blockers' provide a better outcome than allowing the body to progress normally.

You would want to look at:

1. relief of distress during puberty. TRAs claim sky-high suicide rates, of close to 50%, which are absolute nonsense. The alternative to blockers is non-medical transition (the Lily Madigan approach, for example), which is fully reversible, and you would need to weigh up temporary relief of distress, risk of suicide (such as it is), against the effectively permanent sterilization of children incapable of understanding the consequences of such a decision.

1. infertility. those who transition after puberty can, and often do, have children. Even after taking cross-sex hormones, fertility may still be retained. However those who go on these so-called harmless hormones are rendered irreversibly infertile, as their gametes do not mature. They can NEVER have children. This is not a children a child of 10 or 11 (the age at which many are subject to these hormones) can offer informed consent to. It is impossible, and anyone says they can is a liar.

Here's a couple of videos put out by a TRA group in support of this in the case of a 9 or 10 year old biologically female child:

1. long-term outcome, compared with transitioning following a normal puberty. The poster children for blockers who have gone on to take cross-sex hormones do NOT pass. I am not sure the full details, but so-called facial feminization surgery which is MAJOR cranio-facial surgery rearranging many parts of the face so that the ratios, fat levels in various places, etc., are closer to biologically female humans still seems to be necessary - the dosing of children on GnRH hormones from perhaps as young as 10 or 11, followed by cross-sex hormones, does NOT result in the same outcome as a child who was born with that biology. Sex hormones, while increased during puberty, act on the unborn child from just a few weeks gestation, so this trans dream where you can just press 'pause' with some magic blockers and then add some testosterone/oestrogen a bit later is just that - a dream.

1. I am concerned that TRAs may see that a transitioned adolescent is a neutral or even preferable choice over one that has gone through normal puberty. Clearly this is not neutral, and sane people who are not either drunk on TRA kool-aid or Marxist bullshit (in the case of some of the lefty dudebro/handmaiden supporters) understand this and realise that a healthy, fertile human being is the default and preferable outcome for humanity. Now clearly in some cases a healthy fertile body may cause dysphoria for its owner, but its by NO means certain that a dysphoric 9 or 10 year old will be a dysphoric 20 year old, and we must reject the Marxists who suggest that because the latter has distress it's a neutral choice whether we send them on the pathway to a LIFETIME of medication, unknown health problems, shortened life expectancy, osteoporosis, and other issues, or more cautiously say that treating very young children with no conception of sex or fertility, with drugs that start a pathway that leads in nearly all cases to permanent transition and the above-mentioned lifetime complications should be avoided wherever possible.

Note that it is by no means TERF rhetoric that TRAs view the transitioned child as morally preferable to a normal healthy fertile human being, you can see leading TRAs like Zinnia Jones ENCOURAGING children to order these hormone drugs without medical supervision twitter.com/zjemptv/status/972134578411499522, perhaps because the likes of Zinnia Jones experience in their 'transitioned' state not dysphoria but 'euphoria', and see it is desirable to encourage others to follow suit.

1. The body of evidence for children transitioning (as they will do, in nearly all cases) following taking Lupron and similar hormones, is rather scanty, but we can look at high-profile cases where there parents have chosen to make them a public spectacle, such as that of the head of Mermaids, Susie Green, who said, in a BBC documentary, that the surgery performed on her child was made far more difficult because her child had pre-pubescent male genitalia as a result of these drugs.

In a similar vein, Jazz Jennings has apparently been left (permanently?) by these drugs with no libido. www.teenvogue.com/story/jazz-jennings-talks-to-parents-about-orgasm

@TerfinUSA - quality user name btw.

The liars at a certain charity will tell you it's not used in the UK, this is not true, it is. Further, there are other drugs that are more commonly used instead in the UK that work in exactly the same way, as they are from the same class of hormone drug (GnRH agonists). I think the specific coverage of Lupron just reflects the much bigger and more open US drug market, so the publicity reflects what's used over there.

I'm not well up on the drug aspect (although I have read up about Lupron) you see to know more. Could I ask how do you know it is used in the UK? And do you know what other drugs are used as puberty blockers? - I'd like to read about them. Thanks

If the NHS does not use Lupron, are there any studies on the drug that they do use- Triptorelin (apparently)?

I’ve posted on here before about my two years on zoladex (same sort of drug) and the negative effects it’s had on me mentally and physically for the ten years since. There is no way on earth it should be given to children, absolutely no way.

miri that's very interesting re: the IQ level, I hadn't read that before.

In precocious puberty, my understanding is that they are given for very short periods of time while the root cause for the problem is looked at as it can be caused by various tumours of the endocrine system which can be sorted out and life goes on. If they find nothing, then the child is taken off the drugs and life goes on, if that makes sense?

There was a thread on TheStudentRoom where the child of the above marketing officer (who has many many Tweets saying how harmless these drugs) said that her mum had threatened to take her off the 'puberty blockers', because her mum said they were the cause of her bad behaviour.

I'm not sure that she is still in that position... the Mermaid's recently updated website is unclear www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/mermaids-trustees.html
The mimmymum twitter account no doubt has a lot of very concerned parents and vulnerable young people following it who have sought support from the charity.

these are some of the blatantly false posts by Mermaids' marketing officer.

twitter.com/mimmymum/status/903185998946992129

twitter.com/mimmymum/status/874700998463377409

twitter.com/mimmymum/status/835849454779498497

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3177187-Mermaids-has-hit-the-headlines
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3034044-Independent-What-about-the-children-who-said-they-were-transgender-and-then-changed-their-minds
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3214317-Barclays-sponsorship-of-Mermaids
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3059091-Trans-teens-are-being-killed-while-we-debate-nonexistent-problems-The-Guardian
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3054431-Mermaids-story-in-the-Sunday-Times-today

To reinforce what miri1985 said about IQ, men who take it for prostrate cancer refer to "lupron brain" to describe their decline in cognitive ability and memory.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4333639/

Links to related threads:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3177923-This-is-what-Helen-from-Mermaids-writes-about-MN-feminist-posters?pg=20

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3193748-Susie-Green?pg=4

Yes, these drugs are very worrying and I am very concerned that they could be used without prescription and medical supervision. Osteoporosis is no joke and that's just the thin edge of the wedge. I posted an extract from a documentary on here a while ago where a teenage boy had been taking hormones (I think it was HRT or the pill rather than Lupron to be fair). He did undergo irreversible changes, including breast growth and bone fusion. When he was 15, he decided that he was not a girl after all, but was left with the side effects and suffered from depression and anxiety. A doctor specialising in gender dysphoria was on the programme and basically said 'don't give these drugs to teens because most of the time they will detrans anyway'.

Maybe more work could be done to reassure kids that if they do decide they are trans at age 18 or above, that it's still possible to acquire a reasonably convincing appearance. I think there are a lot of messages to kids that say 'you must do it now or never'. That would undoubtedly build anxiety to a massive degree. If they are encouraged to wait however, most of them are likely to accept their biological sex by 18 and the ones that do not can then make an informed choice.

There is serious brainwashing going on in the trans affirming community over these. A few months back there was some total melt on here telling me that only "cis" people get side effects from these drugs, whereas trans people don't. Apparently because the drugs cause changes in your gender identity it feels like a positive change for trans people, because their gender identity gets aligned with their body, so they don't get side effects. "cis" people do get side effects, because it jolts their gender identity and makes them feel trans or something

Utter bilge, and I rather suspect that person is involved in advising parents to put their children on these drugs.

I know there is some evidence for using them in cases of early puberty, by the way. Not arguing agains that: I don't know enough about the pros and cons there.

they're terrifying drugs. I would never, ever give to them to a child. I was on a similar drug for endo (decapeptyl) and it had ruinous and lasting side effects.

They're not properly tested, they're not safe, they're not reversible, they have catastrophic side effects and using them on confused and vulnerable children is a giant class action lawsuit waiting to happen

If what Mermaids is stating is untrue, shouldn’t the Charities Commission be informed?

that the only way these people can justify giving them to kids

The thing is that they're not even trying to justify it, they're just lying and pretending like there are no side effects at all.
Looked up what Mermaids has to say about blockers and its just completely fantastical "However, the hormone blockers offered are reversible ........ blockers do not change your child’s body, but they do pause puberty to give them time to explore their gender further without the adolescent physical changes that can bring great distress. " www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/assets/media/FACTSHEET%20-%20PARENTS%20OF%20PRE_TEENS%202015.docx

I assume that GIDS actually talks through the side effects with the parents before hand in proper detail but if you've been told by other "experts" its grand, safe no physical side effects you won't take those seriously.