The MNHQ Moderation Team: Thread 2

Bumblefuddle and if someone wins a giveaway etc then real addresses are given too.

The IP addresses shown on the screen grabs are not fixed,

Assuming this refers to the user's IP address then It is impossible to say this - you would need to know what kind of service provider is being used for the access point in question and if that service provider is direct or indirect.

and in isolation, cannot be used to pinpoint the location or identity of a user

This is also not correct - location can be identified (including for historic IP addresses where the IP address is dynamic). Identity of the human at the keyboard may require additional info.

Money can be replaced. Life and limb cannot.

She made it quite clear that she was posting those screenshots as an insider with access to the admin tools of mumsnet. With friends on the inside, remember? And the aim of it was to intimidate gender critical posters into submission and silence.

It took planning for her to screenshot the images, and transfer them from the workplace, then sit on them for a couple of months until putting them on social media.

She was however, rather thick that she put her own name to the breach and clearly implicated herself in breaking the law.

She broke the law, or laws, rendered herself unemployable by reputable organisations in order to falsely accuse others of invented transphobia. As the saying goes here: a pat on the back is only a foot and a half away from a kick in the hole, and no doubt EH is experiencing exactly that right now.

I imagine that a lot of mumsnetters who never gave much thought to the TERF war raging about them have peak transed today. So an own goal for them really.

I agree this would be best practice if we were holding what's classed as Personally Sensitive Information (such as financial info or medical records). But that's not the type of info we are collecting on registration etc.

@JustineMumsnet

Considering that MN currently finds itself at the centre of a contentious political situation re the trans debate, and considering that MN staffers have access to sufficient information on MNers to potentially compile “doxx lists” that would be desirable to extremist groups wanting to act unethically, would it not be advisable (and reassuring to your members) to act as though user data WERE sensitive information?

Is there a major cost implication?

Fucking hell. What a basic mupisunderstanding of data protection.

Indeed. I'm starting to think that EH's utter lack of DP understanding was of a piece with her workplace. That claim that MN aren't collecting sensitive personal data is insane. The mitigation would normally be that it's anonymised, but the link here is absolutely straightforward: at signup they ask for an email address (identifiable), a name (ditto) and a postcode (ditto), and administrators can link that with posting on topics like sex and politics.

That's acceptable, given appropriate controls; mind you, telling people to create fake identities to sign up isn't an appropriate control.

But Justine's claim appears to be that they aren't collecting sensitive personal data in the first place, so don't need to operate an ISMS (formal or informal) which has that as a goal. That's simply insane. Who on earth is doing MN's data protection work? Noddy and Bigears?

Her apology is shockingly lacking. I am not a poster on the gender critical boards but a regular (far too much) browser and occasional poster with regards to issues that are very personal to me, my children and my relationships. For any of this information to be published on a whim by some jumped up busy body who thinks she is above the law would literally mean the end of it all for me. Not just myself though there are numerous other posters who live in vulnerable situations whose lives would be over if they were found out.

What other information has she taken a dislike to and decided to screen shot?

I have had to scrub and dereg my account, and hope that this individual does not hold any of the information that would lead violently abusive individuals from my past to find my children, let alone people who disagree with my political views so vehemently they would batter a 60 year old woman and be proud of it. I know I am not alone in this.

Regardless of what the intentions were, and regardless of Emma's LGBT views, actual human beings could have been in life threatening situations because of her.

She did that all by her self, along with making it abundantly clear that the safety of women matters shit all to trans activists.

So with all due respect to MN, forgive me whilst I print that apology and wipe my arse with it.

I agree this would be best practice if we were holding what's classed as Personally Sensitive Information (such as financial info or medical records). But that's not the type of info we are collecting on registration etc.

In all fairness @JustineMumsnet the combination of email, IP address and all namechanges that an individual has (thereby the ability to search their entire posting history), put together is probably a more accurate picture of the users than Facebook and their medical records combined. This data is extremely sensitive where people are escaping DV, talking about medical/mental health problems or issues at work. It is extremely sensitive and people discuss far more personal issues on MN than they would in real life. Adversarial interns of dubious connections are being given access to it.

Please tell me you are taking measures that are proportional to this.

You don't need a historical knowledge of women's rights to know that stealing from an employer is wrong.

Age not relevant unless an actual child.

I agree this would be best practice if we were holding what's classed as Personally Sensitive Information (such as financial info or medical records). But that's not the type of info we are collecting on registration etc.

But you do.

Why EXACTLY do you think there are issues with FB atm?

There's some very publicly available info connecting EH to LGBTQ+ Labour. Friends with LM, perhaps?? If she also has any connection to the list of Labour Women (the supposedly transphobic ones) that needs to be known. Is she part of it? Has she shared info from MN within that group?

It's really not just about the screenshots. It's about what else she stole and who this information has been shared with. If there have been any attempt by anyone else keeping TERF lists (Labour, Twitter, etc.) to "join the dots" in order to profile and then potentially doxx contributors, this is surely very serious indeed!

“I just hand a warning pop up on my phone when trying to navigate off this thread and back to the main feminsm chat page.

It said “This website may be attempting to impersonate www.mumsnet.com to try to steal your personal data.””

Had this a few weeks ago, as did several other people where I live. We still don’t know what caused it, but BT seem to have fixed it at the exchange.

Bumblefuddle That's a damned good point. Posters may have changed NN to post sensitive posts then changed for the rest of the forum. Who's to say EH didn't collect that kind of data? No reassurance she didn't as MN don't know what she did collect.

Personally Sensitive Information

Of course, I'm assuming that's the same as what the legislation calls "Sensitive Personal Data". It might mean something else. Who knows?

Emmageddon,

Emmawhoopsies!

more like

Bumblefuddle

I'm understanding everything you say, and agree with it.

Justine said it was about information collected at registration? Does this mean that legally, it's because we volunteer all the other information about ourselves?

That HQ can't be held responsible for what we say about ourselves? Only for what they ask us?

I mentioned her youth. I wasn't minimising what she has done. I think she should face legal repercussions.
My point, perhaps clumsily made, was that time and again in these debates I see young people with no sense of history, with no awareness of context, with no respect for the struggles of women who fought for the rights they now enjoy and with no understanding of why free speech is important.
It's not all young people but it is a worrying trend especially in those circles.They operate in an echo chamber of identity politics which means they are surprised when their actions have RL consequences. I have no idea how our education system has eroded to produce graduates and students with such a poor grasp of reasoning, critical thought and analysis.

Emma's apology has to be fairly bland from a legal point of view otherwise she risks saying something which would cause more problems for her legally, and potentially for MN.

I am not sure she really could say a lot more under the circumstances (and without legal advice).

I think whatever she said, it wouldn't have have been good enough.

Personally i'm not terribly interested in an apology from her. I just hope she has learned a valuable lesson in life, and other people are more aware of Data Protection issues and personal security issues and learn from it.

I am more concerned about how MN handle things going forward. It throws up a lot of issues and questions about how MN is run. Justine demonstrated last night how lacking they are in some areas.

I know that few companies really are fully compliant and understand data protection law as it stands, never mind GDPR. DH has dealt with people who think they understand on a regular basis, only for him to ask a few questions and find they are shockingly ignorant and lacking in their understanding. People who you would expect to know better and to be handling your data better.

This is something that will only be exposed in time as people make huge fuck ups and these fuck ups have consequences. People caught in the middle of it all, will suffer and be exploited as a result. Its the nature if the beast to a degree.

People do not understand the concept of your data being valuable. The whole thing over Bounty and people thinking they got stuff for free was a real eye opener for me on that score. Until the majority of people understand this as a concept then noone will give it the serious thought it deserves. We are years off that. It will happen in time.

I think Emma should be given a break on a personal level. She's been 'google stalked' due to her own poor understanding of what information she's put out there is her fault but still bloody intrusive and will make her feel exposed. Her naivety over the whole issue, her lack of understanding of her privilege, her very shallow concept of feminism and her piss poor knowledge of how politics fits into every day life are on display to the whole world.

Yes she's acted maliciously and deliberately and fucked people over, but she is getting more than a 'slap on the wrist' just from the public nature of it all. I don't feel comfortable with the idea of 'making her pay for it' on an emotional level that some are saying (the legal recourse is a practical not emotional issue).

An apology never means shit anyway. Its what you do next that matters. Even if it sounded sincere it might not be.

I have one piece of advice for Emma. You don't know it all: don't try to tell people who are older and have more experience that they know nothing. This doesn't mean you are less important or your values less worthy. Sit down and listen for once rather than believing in your own moral superiority alone. Student politics doesn't tend to do that. Grow and learn why. The idealism of youth is utterly crushing when it hits reality. We all go through it in some way. Many here are the product of that effect, for better or worse. Learn to channel your sense of injustice and frustration in better ways. Law abiding and respectful ones.

And for god sake learn the fundamental principle of the law of unintended consequences which frankly I expect any politics graduate to be well versed in more than most.

Bumblefuddle is absolutely right.

Here's a list of the data that MN claim they aren't collecting. I have highlighted the ones which are particularly ludicrous to deny.

2 Sensitive personal data.
In this Act “sensitive personal data” means personal data consisting of information as to—
(a)the racial or ethnic origin of the data subject,
(b)his political opinions,
(c)his religious beliefs or other beliefs of a similar nature,
(d)whether he is a member of a trade union (within the meaning of the M1Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992),
(e)his physical or mental health or condition,
(f)his sexual life,
(g)the commission or alleged commission by him of any offence, or
(h)any proceedings for any offence committed or alleged to have been committed by him, the disposal of such proceedings or the sentence of any court in such proceedings.